Eagledad 2777 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Moose, if other people will just practice the golden rule and let others be, it doesn't have to be a hard road. I work and socialize with transgenders and we all have a great time. They still are people with all the humor, talents, problems, and joys of the rest of us. There really don't have to be any barriers. They are living their own lives and ought to be allowed to make their own decisions about their own lives. I guess some of us just can't let that go unchallenged. Isn't it interesting how we think our experience trumps everybody else's. From my personal experience with and around this subject, I can say with a clear conscience that encouraging youth along these paths is very dangerous and no business of youth scouting organizations. Barry 1 Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Eagledad - you forgot to mention the experience (aside from personal) you have that makes you better qualified then Q who works with them, and the advice of psychologists trained in this field.. Since schools and other youth organizations are listening to the advice of the current experts in this field.. Perhaps you could put out your scientific paper on the subject soon in order to direct everyone in the correct method of treatment. Luckily I have no personal experience with this.. I would hope I would treat them normally, but I do not think it would come naturally until I really got to know them, and my friendliness I fear may come off as forced or fake.. Link to post Share on other sites
LeCastor 641 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Luckily I have no personal experience with this.. I would hope I would treat them normally, but I do not think it would come naturally until I really got to know them, and my friendliness I fear may come off as forced or fake.. Well, at least you're honest. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) I will admit up front that I know very little about "gender identity" issues. Unlike others here, I have never (to my knowledge) known a transgendered or "transitioning" person. (And if it isn't clear already, I am not fluent in the terminology.) I mainly know what I hear or read in the news, and I have read that Wikipedia article before. (And I know you can't always trust what you read on Wikipedia, but that article does seem to be a well-researched summary of medical thought on the subject, although there are a few things in there about "gender as a social construct" that I don't necessarily buy. It might be more accurate to say that I don't know enough to know what to think about them.) There seem to be a few people here who do not believe that "gender identity disorder" (or "gender dysphoria" as the current term seems to be) is a "real thing." Among these, two people seem to be "making fun" of people with this condition. I don't think the latter is very Scoutlike. As for not believing it is a "real thing", I can understand that. After all, it is a "new thing" and it is contrary to the idea that was ingrained into most of us (if not all of us) that men are men and women are women and that's it, and until fairly recently the occasional person in the news who switched from one to the other was kind of viewed by most people as being a "freak." But I'll go with the medical people on this one. It is a biological/medical issue. Edited May 15, 2015 by NJCubScouter Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Eagledad - you forgot to mention the experience (aside from personal) you have that makes you better qualified then Q who works with them, and the advice of psychologists trained in this field.. Since schools and other youth organizations are listening to the advice of the current experts in this field.. Perhaps you could put out your scientific paper on the subject soon in order to direct everyone in the correct method of treatment. Luckily I have no personal experience with this.. I would hope I would treat them normally, but I do not think it would come naturally until I really got to know them, and my friendliness I fear may come off as forced or fake.. Ah, so the rule is determined by the number of friends and work associates. Does work assiates gives us higher authority than friends, and what about family members, how do they rate in your system of Giving opinions. And I must say, you think we don't have psychologist friends, family, scout parents, and work associates? The world is a politically correct mess right now. It's no place for youth scouting organizations. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
LeCastor 641 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 There are two "issues" here: 1. Gender identity in society and how it is perceived. 2. Whether or not Girl Scouts USA should allow girls (who are biologically boys) to join a GSUSA Troop. It is clear that not everyone "gets it" or "understands" gender identity issues. Got it. Also, we don't make policy so statements like "it's no place for youth organizations" is strictly a personal opinion. Got it. I don't want to quash the political back-and-forth and exchange of ideas, but in my opinion it is this kind of talk that might explain whey there are only a few posters on this forum today. Personally, I don't want Scouter.com to be an entertaining politics forum but that's not my call. I just read these threads and get depressed. Sorry, my rant is over. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I totally understand what you are saying LeCaster. In fact I stay here to bring some balance. But from my observation, it wasn't and isn't the discussions on th I & P forum that drove people out, it was the I civility in the scouting forums. There was a time not to long ago that parents and inexperienced leaders were basically told they weren't welcome. Once balanced and helpful discussions become the norm in the scout specific threads, I think the members will start building again. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Ah, so the rule is determined by the number of friends and work associates. Does work assiates gives us higher authority than friends, and what about family members, how do they rate in your system of Giving opinions. And I must say, you think we don't have psychologist friends, family, scout parents, and work associates? The world is a politically correct mess right now. It's no place for youth scouting organizations. Barry EagleDad - YOUR statements were that of questioning what made Q's and Psychiatrists on the subject more qualified then your own.. Isn't it interesting how we think our experience trumps everybody else's. From my personal experience with and around this subject, I can say with a clear conscience that encouraging youth along these paths is very dangerous and no business of youth scouting organizations. Barry I was just allowing you the chance to prove you have more qualifications.. I don't think politics should have anything to do with this subject.. Politicians are not qualified to give expert advice on the subject, they just state whatever they think will get them elected. So if your expertise is from a politicians point of view, forget it. Until you can state your expertise and then give professional well thought out advise on the subject, I (like NJCubScouter) will side with medical professionals.. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 There are two "issues" here: 1. Gender identity in society and how it is perceived. 2. Whether or not Girl Scouts USA should allow girls (who are biologically boys) to join a GSUSA Troop. If GSUSA stated policy is to be believed, it sounds like they are not forced onto a troop that is not equipped to deal with it.. If so, I don't see the problem.. But the one news article I know of the one child trying to join I think was handled all wrong and attempted to force the troop into accepting her.. I also think the newspaper was unfair to just give the accounting from the parents of the transgender child and paint the Troop Leader in a totally negative light. From how the story reads the parents never contacted the troop leader, or the GS for Colorado or National or whatever to give a heads up on the unique situation and find out the policy and allow either the troop leader or the GS for Colorado made the needed inquires and find out if they had suitable placement.. It sounds like the child was brought in by the Grandmother and they just expected the volunteer to have the knowledge & experience to deal with it.. Then were totally mortified that they did not, and went to the papers with the complaint. A heads up and allowing the troop to have time to discuss the matter with others and figure out what could be done I would expect from any parent with a child with special needs (be they politically charged or not).. A child with autism, a paraplegic child etc... You as a parent want your child to be welcomed when they come into a setting, if your child has something unusual, that means not just whisking them into something without giving the leaders a heads up, so they can figure out if they can include the child into their group, and allowing them to prepare the youth so that the youth are prepared, know what to expect and have some guidance on how to deal with them and include them. But then the Colorado branch (per the newspaper, which could have quoted them wrong) stated that ""In this case, an associate delivering our program was not aware of our approach." This makes it sound like the Troop was to simply accept the child whether the leaders and youth of the group could deal with it or not.. I would have felt better had they stated that the parents were not aware of the policy that would place the child if they could find a good fit, and that the parents should have contacted the GSUSA in order for them to be able to help with the placement.. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Well, I guess I need to respond although I am disappointed that I have to. I am not more qualified to make a decision for YOU Eagledad. I recognize your right to make whatever personal decision you want. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way. But I have come to a personal decision and if that doesn't meet your satisfaction, then you'll just have to live with that situation. I am willing to actually 'apply' the golden rule and it seems to work well. Other comment: 'Biologically male' is not as clear a term as you may think. It could be defined by the ability to create offspring with a female of the same species for which sexual reproduction is the only reproductive mechanism. That is probably the most common view. Physical characteristics also play a role both in the 'identity' part as well as in the physical reproductive part. And then there are genetics. Like I've hypothesized in the past: say that I've decided that my gender identity is actually that of a woman and I decide to do the whole package right down to surgery. At my age, being post-reproductive, that whole thing about creating offspring is irrelevant and the other aspects take priority. With surgery and other treatments I would qualify as 'woman' in both the physical as well as the 'mental' respect. And IF, just for example, Eagledad were to become widowed and we later tied the knot, how would BSA view that situation. Would we be a gay couple and therefore unfit as leaders? Or since the outward phenotypic appearance is conventional heterosexuality, even if we were 'avowed', would we be acceptable as leaders? OR is BSA someday going to require a karyotype as part of the membership application? Why not? ...if that is the way 'biologically male (or female)' is defined. Link to post Share on other sites
Peregrinator 85 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Oh, I totally believe that what is termed "gender dysphoria" or "gender identity disorder" exists. But I disagree that treating someone as something he (or she) isn't is a good course of action. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 My mother told me she knew of a child who was born with both male & female anatomy.. The parents were going to wait until they were old enough to decide if they were male or female before they had them have surgery to become a specific gender.. I wonder what youth organizations would be willing to accept him/her until the operation was performed.. Never heard what the outcome was, not even sure my mother kept in contact with them enough to know.. At the time she was retired and living out of a 5th wheel camper hitting the highways and seeing all of the USA at a slow leisurely pace. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 This Gender Identity thing sure would have been useful to some people in 1970. "Son, your draft number is a single digit. Do you want to go to SE Asia, or Canada?" "Neither, Dad. I feel pretty. I'm a GIRL!" Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 If it ever happens again, the 'draft' ought to apply to all persons. And whatever conflict that causes the draft ought to be PAID FOR by the rest. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Now make that THREE people un-Scout-like-ly making fun of it. Link to post Share on other sites
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