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Why Our Children Don’T Think There Are Moral Facts


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Back out of the weeds... and trying to play nice.

 

Here's one word: Exegesis. I think it's a fascinating subject.

 

I've noticed in this thread that examples of moral facts are all things people shouldn't do. That's very un scout like considering we're always trying to encourage scouts to do the right thing rather than punish them for doing the wrong thing. The idea of human dignity is one idea in the Bible (and probably all other religion's basic tenets) that has passed the test of time and been elevated, via exegesis, to the point where it can trump most other rules in the Bible.

 These things that I listed as moral facts are all affirmative duties, not negative:

 

- Human life is precious and should be preserved. 

 

- One should honor and respect the Creator and holy things.

 

- One should help and give to others who are in need.

 

- One should honor one's parents and give them respect and obedience.

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Wouldn't murder be a moral fact?   One would think the vast majority of reasonable and sane people would agree murder is a moral fact, no?

Or in the Soviet Union, China or North Korea, their governments, since they are officially atheists.    I'd say murder is double faceted. It's both a legal term and an action that has moral implicat

These things that I listed as moral facts are all affirmative duties, not negative:   - Human life is precious and should be preserved.    - One should honor and respect the Creator and holy thing

AZ, I am all in with your message except for calling them "facts."  Moral universals, imperatives or absolutes?  Sure. Torturing English is, I think, unnecessary to the message.  

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AZ,although all your "facts" contain the word "should" which makes them not absolutes. Secondly, what happens when "should" is replaced with "must" and then someone is faced with the moral dilemma of having to make a decision which must violate one of the "facts" if the situation puts two of the facts at odds with each other? That is the fundamental problem with moral facts, or absolutes is that with more than one, a situation could/will arise in which they contradict. If one trumps another, then the inferior fact is not an absolute.

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AZ I could see where Duct Tape's moral dilemma would come into place especially with #4

 

 One should honor one's parents and give them respect and obedience.

 

So what happens when you have an abusing parent that hurts you, you have witnesses kill the other parent or another sibling, makes you commit crimes, pimps you out...

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AZ I could see where Duct Tape's moral dilemma would come into place especially with #4

 

 One should honor one's parents and give them respect and obedience.

 

So what happens when you have an abusing parent that hurts you, you have witnesses kill the other parent or another sibling, makes you commit crimes, pimps you out...

 

It's a two-sided street. Once parents act like that, they abdicate the parental role and need no longer be honored.

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AZ,although all your "facts" contain the word "should" which makes them not absolutes. Secondly, what happens when "should" is replaced with "must" and then someone is faced with the moral dilemma of having to make a decision which must violate one of the "facts" if the situation puts two of the facts at odds with each other? That is the fundamental problem with moral facts, or absolutes is that with more than one, a situation could/will arise in which they contradict. If one trumps another, then the inferior fact is not an absolute.

a) It is a fact that one should do x, y, and z.

 

b) Give us an example, and we will reason it out.  Abraham was confronted with one such.  

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AZ, I am all in with your message except for calling them "facts."  Moral universals, imperatives or absolutes?  Sure. Torturing English is, I think, unnecessary to the message.  

 

If they are moral imperatives, they are also "facts" if the field of inquiry is morality.

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I thought that a fact "is" rather than "should" be.

 

I certainly claim no expertise in the special language of morality, should it exist.

 

I would say that it is a "fact" that specific moral absolutes exist, and that those absolutes order what we "should" do.  

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and while those same men thought that such things were self evident, they overlooked slavery to keep everyone in the game.  Sometimes things aren't as self-evident as we would like to believe.

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It's a two-sided street. Once parents act like that, they abdicate the parental role and need no longer be honored.

Then it is not an absolute.There is a reason philosophers have been debating this for millenia. I highly doubt we will find the magic solution. There are problems with moral absolutism, relativism,pluralism, realism, etc... Those much smarter than I couldn't satisfy this. Kant, Plato, Nietzche, etc... In the end, the only thing "I" can do is "do my best" as I travel this world.

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There are things that I believe with all my heart. Can I prove them? No. Are they facts? No. They are things I take on faith. Can I be wrong? Yes, for I am human and being fallible is part of what it means to be human. But do I believe those things anyway? Yes. That is why it is called "faith". I know the difference between knowing and believing. Do I know God exists? No. Do I believe he exists? Yes. Does that mean I doubt he exists? No. I just know I am believing in something without evidence, that I am taking it on "faith". Does that make me a fool? Maybe, but I don't believe so.

 

Are there moral absolutes? I believe there are. Are what those absolutes are a matter of opinion? Yes. Is it fair to say there are moral facts? No, because facts are not things taken on faith. 2+2=4 is a fact (math jokes aside*). Why? Because of the definitions of 2, 4, addition and subtraction. "Murder is immoral". Is that a fact? No. Do I believe it to be true? With all my heart.

 

* 2+2=5 for moderately large values of 2.

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