Lgbt Group Will Pay Bsa $50,000 To Lift Ban On Gay Adult Leaders

[AZMike 173]

PS. AZMike, since it seems by the way you talk that you are Catholic, I was a UC for a Catholic church, just after the vote to allow in gay youth passed, I had a talk with the church's pastor...  I do not know if this decision was regional or national but he assured me that the Catholic church had already discussed this issue at a conference.. Not only did the church have no issue with the homosexual youth, but WHEN the BSA passed the local option the church would have no issue with that either..  And that is how he worded it, emphasis on WHEN..

 

How old was the pastor, incidentally?

[Stosh 3452]

Age is of no importance.  If one had an agenda, they could always find clergy in any religious group that would support it.  Whether it be divorce, homosexuality or any number of other human failings,  Any religious body that can justify the brutality of the Crusades and Inquisition can figure out a way to justify away the wording in Scripture on the issue of homosexuality.

[JoeBob 606]

So the homosexual couple move into their new home in a nice neighborhood, but the Muslim neighbor doesn't bring over a plate a cookies, he comes over and kills them.  The Christian police show up and take him before a Jewish judge who sentences him to the death penalty which is no big deal to the Muslim because he's gong to be martyred for his religion and this is a good thing.

 

Now if the people moving into that house were adulterers, none of this would have ever happened.... 

Unless of course the new neighbors were cartoonists who happened to draw Mohamed; then the Muslim neighbor would kill them anyway.

[moosetracker 132]

AZMike - he was mid-40's.. But l agree with Stosh, what does age have to do with a higher ruling from some sort of area (sorry, I was so happy with the answer itself, I really didn't pay attention to what level this decision was made, but it was higher then his church itself..

 

Stosh - I didn't go from Catholic Church to Catholic Church until I found a priest that gave me the answer I wanted to hear.. I was the UC for units that belonged to a Catholic church.. The priest of that church was the one and only person I could go to in order to get an answer of if I had to look for a new CO for these units..

 

I do know the priest was personally happy with the ruling..  Now does that mean the church would accept a homosexual as a leader? I didn't really ask that, but I would guess not, or if they did it would just be with the committee for something like Popcorn Kernel or something..  I think more that they were fine with it going to local option.. They were not in the need to deny other religions the right to practice their religious beliefs.. I do know this priest was fine if a homosexual youth was in his unit..

 

 

We had leaders from the troop at the meeting and they were a little shaken with the decision... The Discussion went something like this :

 

Troop leader : So what do we do if we get a homosexual youth.

Me:  With most kids they do not figure out their sexual attraction until they reach puberty or after, by then they will already have been in your troop for a few years.. After working with them for years, would you really feel comfortable kicking them out?

Priest :  That's correct.. They will already be a member, and we will have working relationship with them..

Troop leader : Well that's true, we can shape their attitude..

Me: Oh, no the BSA does not get involved in any of our scouts sex lives.. You can't use BSA to try to change their sexual orientation..

Priest:  Correct, the church would not approve of you doing anything like that either..

Troop leader:  No, No, I didn't quite mean  that.. More like they will know how the troop operates, and since we do not discuss sexual issues and never have, either they will know and understand that, or they can be taken aside and reminded it is not an appropriate topic..  This should be fine.. But I don't know if I could accept a homosexual as a troop leader..

Me: You have always had the right to decide the best troop leaders and what is the best person for which position.. The church also has to sign off on the leadership choice. It is just that some other troops in the area may accept homosexuals in positions of leadership..

Priest:  This is correct. The church and you still have the freedom to choose our leadership..

Troop leader: Then I don't see this being any problem..

 

(Can't say this was it word for word.. The discussion was over a year ago.. But, this is close to what it was..)

 

Anyway I will note that this Priest and I have always gotten along famously, and have never been in disagreement on anything, even though you and I can't agree on much.. I know there are conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics.. All I can say is luckily being in the North even the Catholics seem to be more liberal, so I haven't knocked many of their heads together..

[John-in-KC 311]

$50K doesn't even buy a single man-year of labor.

 

$50M might get the attention of Irving...

[moosetracker 132]

Stosh - I wasn't quite sure your point in this post.. Seemed more like musing rather then trying to make a point..

 

Gotta love the arguments and justification processes at work here.

 

We don't want homosexuals leading our boys because their lifestyle is "sinful".

 

But adulterers are okay.

 

Same for those who gossip about others.

 

Somewhere deep inside of me says that I really don't think murder, pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, gossip, lying, kleptomania or any other types of vices are "okay".   There are those who go to great lengths to try and justify their positions on these issues, and that's an okay thing for them to do.  We have all been given free will to make our own choices.  Just don't try and impose those justification on others.  

 

So the homosexual couple move into their new home in a nice neighborhood, but the Muslim neighbor doesn't bring over a plate a cookies, he comes over and kills them.  The Christian police show up and take him before a Jewish judge who sentences him to the death penalty which is no big deal to the Muslim because he's gong to be martyred for his religion and this is a good thing.

 

So explain to me how nicely this works out for the homosexual couple.

 

Now if the people moving into that house were adulterers, none of this would have ever happened....  Or if the couple didn't want kids and aborted their unborn child, no one would have lost any sleep over that one either.  One isn't going to amass huge rallies when a white man gets gunned down on a public street by a black cop.  

 

It just depends on what the sin du jour happens to be politically whipped up at the moment..  True justice is only an opinion, too.

 

The only thing I wanted to comment on was "Somewhere deep inside of me says that I really don't think murder, pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, gossip, lying, kleptomania or any other types of vices are "okay".  "

 

As for the adultery, gossip, lying people,kleptomania.. Maybe not the preferred leader so if you had people standing in line waiting for a troop position and you had your choice, you could refuse them.. Otherwise, they are problems you can overlook.. We had someone who either lied or was delusional not sure which.. She could say something in front of 20 of us, and then with a straight face deny she ever said it.. We just learned that anything she said, you doubled checked with someone else if possible..  She was troop outdoor leader, Venture leader and then later became the COR for the church of the Cub Scouts & Boy Scouts.. There was someone in the troop that there was something in her past with the cub scouts that we were told in the troop we could use her in leadership for anything that did not involve money..

 

As for Homosexuality - you again have to understand the different points of view.. For your religious belief it is a sin.. For ours it is something they are born with.. So it is something similar to in the past when religious people considered anyone born with a serious debilitating birth defect was either a witch or a demon child, verses now understanding it is nothing more then a birth defect.. That is the difference between the conservative religious point of view vs the liberal religious point of view on the subject of homosexuality.. So there is nothing that is deep within saying a homosexual is not OK.. For us a homosexual is absolute no problem at all.. But, in order to be able to not break rules in order to put them in leadership roles, we need BSA to endorse the local option.. Until then, we can simply continue to break the rules.

[Stosh 3452]

Homosexuality among the clergy in the Catholic church is a moot point.  The priests and nuns take a vow of celibacy.  How would anyone know?

[Eagledad 2779]

As for Homosexuality - you again have to understand the different points of view.. For your religious belief it is a sin.. For ours it is something they are born with.. So it is something similar to in the past when religious people considered anyone born with a serious debilitating birth defect was either a witch or a demon child, verses now understanding it is nothing more then a birth defect.. That is the difference between the conservative religious point of view vs the liberal religious point of view on the subject of homosexuality.. So there is nothing that is deep within saying a homosexual is not OK.. For us a homosexual is absolute no problem at all.. But, in order to be able to not break rules in order to put them in leadership roles, we need BSA to endorse the local option.. Until then, we can simply continue to break the rules.

Wow, a pragmatic none condescending explanation of the situation. Well done.

 

Now how do I explain it to my liberal democrate atheist dad who doesn't believe people are born gay and are not good role models for boys?

 

It's one of the few things we agree on.

 

Barry 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Eagledad

[Stosh 3452]

Stosh - I wasn't quite sure your point in this post.. Seemed more like musing rather then trying to make a point..

 

 

The only thing I wanted to comment on was "Somewhere deep inside of me says that I really don't think murder, pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, gossip, lying, kleptomania or any other types of vices are "okay".  "

 

As for the adultery, gossip, lying people,kleptomania.. Maybe not the preferred leader so if you had people standing in line waiting for a troop position and you had your choice, you could refuse them.. Otherwise, they are problems you can overlook.. We had someone who either lied or was delusional not sure which.. She could say something in front of 20 of us, and then with a straight face deny she ever said it.. We just learned that anything she said, you doubled checked with someone else if possible..  She was troop outdoor leader, Venture leader and then later became the COR for the church of the Cub Scouts & Boy Scouts.. There was someone in the troop that there was something in her past with the cub scouts that we were told in the troop we could use her in leadership for anything that did not involve money..

 

As for Homosexuality - you again have to understand the different points of view.. For your religious belief it is a sin.. For ours it is something they are born with.. So it is something similar to in the past when religious people considered anyone born with a serious debilitating birth defect was either a witch or a demon child, verses now understanding it is nothing more then a birth defect.. That is the difference between the conservative religious point of view vs the liberal religious point of view on the subject of homosexuality.. So there is nothing that is deep within saying a homosexual is not OK.. For us a homosexual is absolute no problem at all.. But, in order to be able to not break rules in order to put them in leadership roles, we need BSA to endorse the local option.. Until then, we can simply continue to break the rules.

 

If a person is handicapped, they learn to live within society with their limitations.  There is nothing morally wrong with what they are doing.  They live the hand they are dealt.

 

If a person has a certain skin color, the same is true.  

 

These people have no choice and physical characteristics are not a moral issue.

 

However, certain activities people choose to do, do fall under moral issues.

 

A person who's orientation is towards the same sex does not have to choose the sinful option anymore than the pedophile.  I would love to be a millionaire, but my kleptomaniacal tendencies I keep in check and do not act on them.  

 

There's a difference between being something and doing something.  It's the choices we make.  A professional "hit man" has made a conscious choice that it is okay to have a murderous lifestyle.  To some the abortion doctor might fall into that classification.  A pedophile who preys on children is not an acceptable lifestyle in our culture  The kleptomaniac's lifestyle of petty theft is not an accepted lifestyle either.  However, now we are expected to accept as an okay lifestyle, homosexuality?  What's next? 

 

So another person's choice has no bearing on me.  I too have choices and when it gets to the point where I need to take a stand I will.  Until then I don't worry about it.

[Stosh 3452]

Wow, a pragmatic none condescending explanation of the situation. Well done.

 

Now how do I explain it to my liberal democrate atheist dad who doesn't believe people are born gay and are not good role models for boys?

 

It's one of the few things we agree on.

 

Barry 

 

Gee, I always thought it was the conservative, Republican, Bible-thumpers  who were the ones who don't believe people are born gay and were not good role models for boys?

[packsaddle 753]

$50K doesn't even buy a single man-year of labor.

 

$50M might get the attention of Irving...

Ow! That hurts. It's more than I get paid.

[moosetracker 132]

Sorry - Stosh - but no.. We are sexual beings.. What you propose is similar to asking a child born with a serious curvature of the spine to ignore it and stand up straight.. If God creates all humans then he created the homosexual. Why should they have to deny themselves a fulfilling meaningful life in order to make you feel comfortable or fulfill your religious beliefs especially when they don't share in the same religious beliefs as you?

 

God did not design the Kleptomaniac and to steal from others you are infringing or hurting someone else.. Also since a lot of pedophiles claim something in their childhood (mother, victim of another pedophile etc.) I have yet to see anything that can persuade me that you are born as pedophiles.. Again with a pedophile, you are hurting others, the victim being an innocent child just makes it all the more worse.

Edited May 7, 2015 by moosetracker

[Eagledad 2779]

Sorry - Stosh - but no.. We are sexual beings.. What you propose is similar to asking a child born with a serious curvature of the spine to ignore it and stand up straight.. If God creates all humans then he created the homosexual. Why should they have to deny themselves a fulfilling meaningful life in order to make you feel comfortable or fulfill your religious beliefs especially when they don't share in the same religious beliefs as you?

 

 

Of course there is no proof that gays are born gay and you don't have to be religious to consider the crime of encouraging a person to live a life they weren't born for. But if you want to go that trail, many other groups support your progressive thinking like pedifiles, bestiality, bisexuals, necrophilia, transexuals and on and on. 

 

Is everyone normal and should be allowed to be role models for our sons? 

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

@@moosetracker  So then as sexual beings, polygamy and adultery are okay as well?  Polygamy is acceptable in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic sacred writings.  It is only outlawed by US law.  The citizens of the Utah territory were required to deny their religious beliefs in order to gain statehood.  Adultery is okay in our culture, so now we can all breathe easier with all the single moms out there that either never married or were married by had their marriage broken up are being taken care of by US laws and programs.  There are a lot of cultures out there where 12 year olds get married regularly and other "arranged marriages" (majority in the world) are set up for children as young as 2-3.  So the pedophyle argument is unique to the US law as well.  Nothing to do with morals, just legal status which may in fact run contrary to the sexual being argument and most definitely don't hold weight in the religious moral setting.

 

Somehow the sexual being argument falls flat along the way.

[AZMike 173]

Age is of no importance.  If one had an agenda, they could always find clergy in any religious group that would support it.  Whether it be divorce, homosexuality or any number of other human failings,  Any religious body that can justify the brutality of the Crusades and Inquisition can figure out a way to justify away the wording in Scripture on the issue of homosexuality.

 

Just curious. The Catholic priesthood has a counterintuitive aspect in that older American priests and nuns/religious sisters (for a variety of reasons) tend to be have less adherence to orthodoxy and be more theologically liberal, and the younger priests coming out of the seminaries and the nuns overwhelmingly tend to be very orthodox, a phenomenon that has led many to speculate about the upcoming changes in the Church in the next 10 or 20 years.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AZMike