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mattman578

Singing? For Your Stuff (Edited By Packsaddle)

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First of all, I cannot be a helicopter parent, for I have no kids. I would be careful to label other Scouters here as helicopters (JBlake a helicopter? Lol.)

 

[snip]

Again, children and teenagers don't challenge authority as much as society pretends they do. A scout will probably play along with anything in order to not stick out and be harassed for being soft. 

 

No offense, but how would you know?

 

I know kids that are regular "Richie Cunninghams" at Scouts, but talk to their parents and they'd tell you the kid is a back-talking, rule-breaking putz 50% of the time at home.

 

Children very much *do* challenge authority a great deal. It is part of growing up and finding yourself. There's a great deal observed and learned in being a parent that those without kids will never, ever learn. This knowledge can only come with having kids and being that close to them as the grow and learn in a family environment. Sorry, but that's a fact.

Edited by Mozartbrau

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Eagledad: show me where anybody banned positive recognition. Also show me how making Scouts sing for possessions or get sent on snipe hunts is positive recognition similiar to singing happy birthday.

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Mozart, I'm 21 years old. I'm much closer to being your son than being you. In other words, in the last several years, I've spent far more time being, and being around teenagers than you have. 

My statement was not to say, kids never rebel against authority, but more so In situations like the singing (or any hazing situation really), I don't think kids are likely to object to the situation. Like Robert Champion, even when they feel weird about the situation. They aren't going to challenge the group. 

Sentinel947 

Edited by Sentinel947

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I don't imagine there's much question that there are Scouts who find even positive recognition (such as being called up front to have "happy birthday" sung to them) embarrassing.  Some kids are shy and never want attention called to them, even if it's for a good reason.  Even though the intent is positive, the result is not. 

 

Although I don't think embarassment is humiliation (I reserve humiliation as a feeling of having done something wrong), others - including the Scouts - may not agree with my interpretation.

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Mozart, I'm 21 years old. I'm much closer to being your son than being you. In other words, in the last several years, I've spent far more time being, and being around teenagers than you have. 

 

My statement was not to say, kids never rebel against authority, but more so In situations like the singing (or any hazing situation really), I don't think kids are likely to object to the situation. Like Robert Champion, even when they feel weird about the situation. They aren't going to challenge the group. 

 

Sentinel947 

 

@@Sentinel947, Being a teenager and being around teenagers is NOT the same as being a parent and having first hand insight in to how rebellious a child is. Your perspective is that of a recent former teenager, that doesn't make you an expert on kids or teenagers. Sorry, but that's another thing that sucks about being young...you simply don't have the harsh marks or tours of duty to know what you're talking about in some cases. Call me when you have kids and put in the sweat equity....but wait about 6 years and enjoy being young. ;)

 

I've seen scouts challenge a group. I EXPECT scouts to challenge ANYTHING that goes against the Law and Oath...anywhere. That is why we are in Scouting. We are NOT the same as those people who follow the crowd. We tell our Scouts all the time to be that person who stands up for the kid being picked on, be the person that refuses to let someone cheat off your paper even if it means being shunned, help that person on the corner who dropped their groceries while others walk by, be that person who picks up that piece of garbage in the park that several folks walked by.

 

How you do things has a huge impact on whether someone experiences it as embarrassment or harassment. 

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Eagledad: show me where anybody banned positive recognition. Also show me how making Scouts sing for possessions or get sent on snipe hunts is positive recognition similiar to singing happy birthday.

 

Wearing a moose hat on a table in front of 400 people while being sung Happy Birthday would not be considered positive by many people.

 

You see, it is all in the delivery. Any action can be slightly adjusted to have either positive or negative outcomes. It is all in HOW it is done.

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Folks who judge others in Black or White amuse me.

 

Embarrassment is part of life.  We seek to put our boys into challenging situations so that they will grow.  If we have to avoid all embarrassment, than we better not challenge them.

 

If that's your standard, consider me a proud rogue.

 

I'm not judging you in black and white.  I'm judging the behavior and it is our role to judge and to learn right from wrong.  It is wrong.  Embarrassment is negative discipline and explicitly against BSA positive discipline rules.  That part is explicit.  

 

Further, it's the intentional inflicting embarrassment as your tool for punishment that is cruel and against all that we are supposed to teach our scouts.  It went out the door with pointed dunce hats and shame.

 

Perhaps some people get the joke.  But those that need the lesson don't get the joke and don't learn the lesson you want.  They learn resentment, not to trust and it's okay to be mean and inflict bad experiences on others as long as you can justify it.

Edited by fred johnson
  • Upvote 1

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Wearing a moose hat on a table in front of 400 people while being sung Happy Birthday would not be considered positive by many people.

And what's wrong with a moose hat ???   I am deeply offended !! :mad:

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Eagledad's on to something here - measure the actions by the Scout Law.

 

Is making someone sing for a lost item Helpful?  Friendly?  Courteous?  KIND???  

 

Is snatching the hat off another person's head Trustworthy? Helpful?  Friendly? Courteous? Kind?

 

Is sending a Scout out for a rope stretcher or a left handed right footed smoke bender Kind?

 

My vote?  No.  And if someone tries to do any of those things to one of my Scouts, they'll find out very quickly just what Loyal means.

  • Upvote 3

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@@Sentinel947, Being a teenager and being around teenagers is NOT the same as being a parent and having first hand insight in to how rebellious a child is. Your perspective is that of a recent former teenager, that doesn't make you an expert on kids or teenagers. Sorry, but that's another thing that sucks about being young...you simply don't have the harsh marks or tours of duty to know what you're talking about in some cases. Call me when you have kids and put in the sweat equity....but wait about 6 years and enjoy being young. ;)

 

I've seen scouts challenge a group. I EXPECT scouts to challenge ANYTHING that goes against the Law and Oath...anywhere. That is why we are in Scouting. We are NOT the same as those people who follow the crowd. We tell our Scouts all the time to be that person who stands up for the kid being picked on, be the person that refuses to let someone cheat off your paper even if it means being shunned, help that person on the corner who dropped their groceries while others walk by, be that person who picks up that piece of garbage in the park that several folks walked by.

 

How you do things has a huge impact on whether someone experiences it as embarrassment or harassment. 

I'm not an expert, and I never claimed to be. However, I don't agree being a parent makes one an expert on teenagers. 

 

Regardless, I see we aren't going to agree on this topic, and I don't see our opinions changing. 

 

Sentinel947 

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I'm not an expert, and I never claimed to be. However, I don't agree being a parent makes one an expert on teenagers.

Regardless, I see we aren't going to agree on this topic, and I don't see our opinions changing.

Sentinel947

 

It's hard to have an opinion on something you've never experienced. I've never been to China so I can only talk about what I've read and seen on TV. I *have* been to Japan many, many times. I've lived there and spent many years there I CAN have a detailed opinion about that.

 

Having been a teenager allows you to speak with authority on BEING a teenager. It does not, however, give you the same insight as to what it's like to raise them. Anyone without kids will continue to think they're right...until they have kids. Then they'll get the picture.

 

I knows it's tough for you to see it at this age but them's the facts. ;) No need to agree. Anyone with kids knows what I mean.

Edited by Mozartbrau

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No offense, but how would you know?

 

I know kids that are regular "Richie Cunninghams" at Scouts, but talk to their parents and they'd tell you the kid is a back-talking, rule-breaking putz 50% of the time at home.

 

Children very much *do* challenge authority a great deal. It is part of growing up and finding yourself. There's a great deal observed and learned in being a parent that those without kids will never, ever learn. This knowledge can only come with having kids and being that close to them as the grow and learn in a family environment. Sorry, but that's a fact.

 

Richie Cunningham?  Heck no!  Try Eddie Haskell  that fits a whole lot better.  :)

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Richie Cunningham?  Heck no!  Try Eddie Haskell  that fits a whole lot better.  :)

Lulz, yeah I was going for the clean cut kid who was more likely to be a Boy Scout but still rebelled a bit.

 

Eddie Haskell is more likely a better representation of most Scouts though. ;)

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First of all, I cannot be a helicopter parent, for I have no kids. I would be careful to label other Scouters here as helicopters (JBlake a helicopter? Lol.)

 

I said adult, not parent. And as for JBlake, we have never witnessed how he walks the walk.

 

Yep, and I question your honesty as well.  Your point was made a long time ago.  Give it a rest.

 

Second, your argument is a straw argument. Nobody made any statement about singing happy birthday being bullying. 

 

I didn't use bullying and singing happy birthday in the post, much less the same sentence. I think you are being a little too sensitive, which is causing you to be a little too creative in your defense. 

 

Accusing people of being too sensitive is the first step in identifying a bully victim.  I think that's the excuse every bully uses to justify why they pick certain targets to bully.  "Awww, I was just teasin', he was just being over sensitive."

 

The difference between somebody losing their stuff and singing versus the troop singing happy birthday is intent and results.

 

It can be yes, but my point is that some adults are willing to prevent a good intent (like positive recognition in public) at the risk of the result (embarrassment) and I suggest that is helicoptering. 

 

And why are the adults involved at all unless they are being the helicopters?  

 

I'd argue the intent of making a scout sing for lost items is to humiliate them so they won't lose that item again. It's an intentional infliction of humiliation by authority figures. It's not a casual by product, it's the main tool. There are better ways to help Scouts learn how to keep track of their stuff than by using public humiliation as the method. 

 

Anything can be carried too far, but how is your last statement different than using peer pressure to motivate action. In fact, peer pressure is often used here in other terms like Patrol Method for using the group or team pressure to motivate a specific actions. Advancement is a very popular expected result of peer pressure. 

 

In all my years of working with youth, I have never seen any peers use singing or embarrassment of others as a means of corrective action.  "Drop and give me 10", is an adult expression as are all the other examples given in this thread.  "Hey, Johnny, it's your birthday today!  Happy Birthday." is all my boys get.  If they want to sing they can, but they have never done so to-date.  Adults on the other hand?  Well, they do it all the time.  That's not a peer reaction.

 

Again, children and teenagers don't challenge authority as much as society pretends they do. 

 

Well I'll disagree; we don't call it challenging as much as we call it rebelling or misbehaving. It really is more a matter of how the authoritive figure reacts to the challenge. I will give you a very popular challenge by scouts to authority, "Wearing the Correct Uniform". What is the intent of the results when a scout doesn't wear the uniform as expected. That is one example, but we can come up with challenges by scouts against the authority all the time.

 

So say the adults.  If an adult doesn't wear the uniform correctly we don't call it rebellion.  But when a kid does it, well that's just them rebelling?  I agree with Sentinel947, Kids are taught to be submissive in school, in church and at home.  However, as they get older they are watching what the adults are doing and now that they are getting close to adulthood (in some cultures they are adults) they emulate them.  This activity is most often identified by adults as rebellion.  It's nothing more than saying they are adults as well.

 

I'll concede that in the grand scheme of teenagers and bullying, this type of behavior isn't very serious. It doesn't need PSA's done about it, nor being added to youth protection. While some of us don't mind having to sing in public, the principle of using humiliation remains, and I doubt any of us want to be publicly humiliated for mistakes we make in different manners. 

 

I agree, but it depends on the intent. I think if you spent more time teaching scouts to use the Scout Law in the actions of intent instead of demonizing specific actions, you will get a lot better responses. 

 

Remember when National came out against using holding scouts up-side-down during the Bobcat ceremony? National said they  took it out because the intent was hazing, but it was the adults who got hazed when the scouts heard it was taken out. Don't judge actions in a vacuum, judge each individual action by the intent within the parameters of the scout law. That will help you more consistent with the scouts.

 

Good luck with that because there is no way anyone is capable of measuring the intent of others.    In our culture we are all judged by our actions, never our intents.

 

So maybe I am held a bit suspicious about talking the talk, walking the walk, but for some unknown reason, I just don't seem to have the problems people here on the forum seem to be identifying.  Maybe it isn't talking the talk and walking the walk, maybe it is nothing more than just taking the right path in the first place.  It also helps to have a degree in Psychology and what works the best, trust and respect your boys to begin with and then one doesn't have to spend one's time hovering over them to make sure they do it right.

 

Barry

 

Edited by Stosh
  • Upvote 1

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And what's wrong with a moose hat ???   I am deeply offended !! :mad:

 

Try taking a gal out on a first date and it's her birthday.  You go to Texas Road House and she has to get on the saddle and have the wait-staff sing stupid songs FOR her?   She doesn't even have to say anything.  So, seriously, do you really envision a second date out even in the far future?  Yes, singing happy birthday can be embarrassing.... even without the moose hat....   :)

 

By the way, I took my daughter out to Texas Road House on her birthday and as we were going in, she reminded me that she did have cab fare to get home if I so much as mention to anyone there that it was her birthday.  

Edited by Stosh

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