Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[moosetracker 132]

Eagledad - we have already discussed and have proof BSA allows in atheist religions, Buddah and as Merlyn stated Taoism and others..  You seem to be belittling personal reflection for coming up with your beliefs?  Why?  What is wrong with sleeping out under the stars and looking around and coming to the realization that something great must have had a hand in organizing everything, or that the sum of nature is greater then ourselves or whatever..  Who are you to say that coming to a belief in a higher power this way is not as good as being dragged off to Sunday school to have your beliefs drummed into your head from a young age.

[TAHAWK 1420]

People can be rude, as I know I have been.

 

I believe that no one can "insult" you against your will, just as no one can "make you mad."  An essential ingredient comes from you. 

 

I acknowledge that most of what I think of as "ethics" is found in the Book, along with a great deal that I believe must come from human error .

 

But I find the same lessons elsewhere. 

 

I have experienced ethical and moral behavior from atheists.  I have listened to atheists, like the Dalai Lama, speak on how one ought to act, and believe that I hear people with the highest moral and ethical values.

 

Someone tried to teach us about valuing the good in people not of our faith and about not judging.  

Edited April 21, 2015 by TAHAWK

[Eagledad 2777]

Eagledad - we have already discussed and have proof BSA allows in atheist religions, Buddah and as Merlyn stated Taoism and others..  You seem to be belittling personal reflection for coming up with your beliefs?  Why?  What is wrong with sleeping out under the stars and looking around and coming to the realization that something great must have had a hand in organizing everything, or that the sum of nature is greater then ourselves or whatever..  Who are you to say that coming to a belief in a higher power this way is not as good as being dragged off to Sunday school to have your beliefs drummed into your head from a young age.

God is not in the program for personal reflection. Reflection is the place to find God, but not justify His purpose. God is in the program to anchor  morality and ethics. 

 

As for some of the atheist permitted to earn Eagle, well I'll let National fall over themselves trying to justify their spirituality. But remember, the BSA has already one the suit against them to allow atheist. So even National draws a line. The problem for atheist is when the question is asked of the source of morality, man is not a good answer. 

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

God is in the program to anchor  morality and ethics.

 

I've pointed out numerous times that the BSA's god requirements don't point to ANY particular morality or ethics, since it's quite possible for one member's religion to believe X is moral and another member's religion to believe X is immoral.  There's simply nothing to anchor to.

[Eagledad 2777]

I have experienced ethical and moral behavior from atheists.  I have listened to atheists, like the Dalai Lama, speak on how one ought to act, and believe that I hear people with the highest moral and ethical values.

Based from what? Your own values? Where did you get your values that you can judge someone else's interpretation of good ethical and moral behaviors? When two scoutmasters disagree, where could a scout go to find the true answer? God is the only consistent unchanging source of ethical behavior. God is all that holds the law and oath valid in the definition of character that defines the scouting program. 

 

So if you want to brush off a scouts experience of god to a rock, fine, that makes it easy for you. But when he comes to a true moral decision, did you really help him become better than he was? 

 

Barry 

[Eagledad 2777]

I've pointed out numerous times that the BSA's god requirements don't point to ANY particular morality or ethics, since it's quite possible for one member's religion to believe X is moral and another member's religion to believe X is immoral.  There's simply nothing to anchor to.

You have only pointed out that National doesn't go into details, It is the elephant in the room Merlyn. Why would it be worth going through all this hassle otherwise?

 

Barry

[Peregrinator 85]

What does that mean exactly?

 

"Higher power" isn't sufficient to describe God since it is comparative, not superlative.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

You have only pointed out that National doesn't go into details, It is the elephant in the room Merlyn. Why would it be worth going through all this hassle otherwise?

 

Barry

 

Your response makes no sense.  The BSA's moral stance in incoherent, it can't be coherent since it allows contradictions.

[Stosh 3452]

Just because I call a unit a Scientology unit does not mean I'm implying it only allows Scientologists.  It's chartered by the church of Scientology.

 

Never said it did.  Lutherans take on non-members all the time.  My CO has no members in it's troop.  They view it as a community outreach program.  So the point being, the CO is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Eagledad 2777]

Your response makes no sense.  The BSA's moral stance in incoherent, it can't be coherent since it allows contradictions.

National does seem to stumble a bit trying to dodge litigation from the hard answers. But the Oath, Law, Mission and Vision statements, are still the key framework to program's values and God is right in the middle. I don't seen any outcry to change any of that. Atheism just doesn't make sense or fit in the present BSA values framework.

 

Barry

[moosetracker 132]

"Higher power" isn't sufficient to describe God since it is comparative, not superlative.

Higher power isn't something this forum came up with in order to distort the views of BSA on this.. BSA has stated this is acceptable terminology time & time again.. As in this that I pulled from

 

“Duty to God†lies at the foundation of Scouting’s commitment to moral, ethical, and spiritual growth. To reach our full potential and learn how to make better choices throughout our lives, each of us needs to believe in a higher power."

 

Eagledad - I think what Merlyn is stating is that morals differ from religious belief to religious belief.. These disagreements have caused many religious wars (Which each side of the war believes their side is morally justified).. In lesser terms are the arguments of the past about slavery and today about homosexuals and all the other reasons denominations have split and created new factions. Or people just create a totally new religion based on their beliefs that are different then the religions currently offered..

 

Also Eagledad I can't remember the religion, but I know in the past we have discussed the BSA acceptance of a religion where they do believe in a God or higher power, but their belief is that this higher power does not expect anything from them, so for that group their moral ethics is not born of their belief in a higher power.. But this is true of any of the atheists religions that are acceptable..

 

Who knows the religion of the rock may have a lot of moral ethics.. At least I could see it being big into environmental science and saving the planet as with any religion that is based in nature.. But it may have more.. Rocks can be very angry gods, if you see earthquakes and volcanos as the gods having a terrible temper if you don't do right.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Never said it did.  Lutherans take on non-members all the time.  My CO has no members in it's troop.  They view it as a community outreach program.  So the point being, the CO is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

I was responding to this earlier remark:

Mozartbrau, on 15 Apr 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

I'm going to convert to Scientology just to make BSA's head spin on the whole "God" and religion issue.

 

Go Thetans!!! Beat Xenu!!! 

 

To show that Scientologists in the BSA are nothing new, and that the BSA even allows them to charter units.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

National does seem to stumble a bit trying to dodge litigation from the hard answers. But the Oath, Law, Mission and Vision statements, are still the key framework to program's values and God is right in the middle. I don't seen any outcry to change any of that. Atheism just doesn't make sense or fit in the present BSA values framework.

 

I'd say that's due to the incoherent BSA values framework, since they DO allow some atheists, particularly if they belong to a religion.

[Eagledad 2777]

Eagledad - I think what Merlyn is stating is that morals differ from religious belief to religious belief.. These disagreements have caused many religious wars (Which each side of the war believes their side is morally justified)..

 

With in the boundaries of the BSA, God is the source for morality, but interpretation of God is the individual part. Still, are the Methodist and Baptist really all that far apart? This is why the family has to be the main source of a scouts interpretations of God desires for us. 

 

In lesser terms are the arguments of the past about slavery and today about homosexuals and all the other reasons denominations have split and created new factions. Or people just create a totally new religion based on their beliefs that are different then the religions currently offered..

 

The lesser terms stuff is individual again because each scout must search the resources of their specific religion. It has little bearing on the point that God is required in a moral and ethical values program. 

 

Also Eagledad I can't remember the religion, but I know in the past we have discussed the BSA acceptance of a religion where they do believe in a God or higher power, but their belief is that this higher power does not expect anything from them, so for that group their moral ethics is not born of their belief in a higher power.. But this is true of any of the atheists religions that are acceptable..

 

Yes, I think that is NJ's religion. So how do we work with a scout who doesn't have any source of reference their morality when they are lost? I think NJ would like to take on that task for his son. Still, without getting into differences of religion, we must remember we adults are task to live by the law and oath in front of the scouts. That is the best we can do as far as how God influences our personal lives.

 

Who knows the religion of the rock may have a lot of moral ethics.. At least I could see it being big into environmental science and saving the planet as with any religion that is based in nature.. But it may have more.. Rocks can be very angry gods, if you see earthquakes and volcanos as the gods having a terrible temper if you don't do right.

 

I will respect that in the context of lightening up the discussion by being tongue and cheek. I owe you that for those times I didn't recognize before. 

 

Barry

Edited April 21, 2015 by Eagledad

[Stosh 3452]

All are Gymnosperms as I'm sure you are aware. Even pine trees have a season in which there are more needles shed than at other times. But they just have new ones out already thus preserving some 'green'. The above species merely lose everything on a seasonal basis. The term 'evergreen' is somewhat subjective.

 

 

 

Seriously?  Do you know my wife!   LOL!!!!