Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[DuctTape 1230]

Who measured those actions (or lack there of) and what were they measure against?

 

Barry

Good question. Perhaps "Do a good turn daily" is an acceptable metric?

[moosetracker 132]

LeCastor - I see your point that Baden Powell saw god in the Judeo-Christian sense..  Does not mean that BSA sees it that way, it was formed by using Baden Powells BS as a model, but it was always it's own organization, and it did create different policies right from the start.. We do not do our duty to our king either.. Perhaps BSA did start off with BP's idea for God, which is why it is stated that way in their policies ..  But BSA's actions show they have changed from that opinion.  As others have stated over the years as the world got smaller due to being able to travel faster and more comfortably, and being able to talk through technology to anyone in the world, people grew to understand and respect the views of others even if those views are way different then their own..

[Gone 435]

We ended Jim Crow (at least officially)...

 

...and replaced it with affirmative action and 50 years of reverse discrimination. Not good.

 

 

I think the BSA's current attitude is, if a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian or a Deist or a believer in the Great Spirit, or whoever else, is willing to pledge to do his best to do his duty to God, the BSA is not going to worry about what the person is really thinking when they say the word "God."

 

I can't tell what BSA's current attitude is. They ask for members' opinions and then make decisions that go against the majority, so who the heck knows that they will do.

 

My concern is the Scouter or adult sitting on a BOR that may may ask a Scout a question about his relationship with God and then fail the Scout for lack of a Judeo-Christian-Muslim aligned answer. I too agree we should not define faith as belief in just God. Higher power or something similar works just as well. Frankly, if a Scout is living 11 of 12 points of the Scout Law that's a 91.6 average...and that's an "A" in my book. Pass!

Edited April 17, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[Rick_in_CA 401]

Is that is all about, you want to allow families who believe god is a rock? Shesh, sure bring him in and move on. Unlike the atheist, I can see the oath and law working for him, I think. 

 

That being said, I would have a lot of concern for the mental stability of a scout who had such a belief and I might consider it abuse by the parent who encouraged him. But then, I had experience with very thing while I was a SM, so maybe it's just me.

 

Barry

The danger is that when someone says "that rock is god", we might fail to understand what that really means. It might be something really profound (and it might not). Faith is a very personal thing, and it can be very complicated. There is a reason we are not supposed to judge a scouts faith.

 

As for the atheist thing, I don't undersand why the oath and law wouldn't work for one? Sure there are some atheists that couldn't follow the "show respect for other faiths" part, but there are a few Christians I have met that wouldn't be able to follow that either. As to duing your duty to God, as the BSA leaves the definition of that to the individual, I can see plenty of atheists that could do that (and not just Buddhists).

 

Or are you defining "atheist" as someone who believes all faith is stupid? Or believes nothing? Because that isn't what the word means.

[Stosh 3452]

...and replaced it with affirmative action and 50 years of reverse discrimination. Not good.

 

 

 

I can't tell what BSA's current attitude is. They ask for members' opinions and then make decisions that go against the majority, so who the heck knows that they will do.

 

My concern is the Scouter or adult sitting on a BOR that may may ask a Scout a question about his relationship with God and then fail the Scout for lack of a Judeo-Christian-Muslim aligned answer. I too agree we should not define faith as belief in just God. Higher power or something similar works just as well. Frankly, if a Scout is living 11 of 12 points of the Scout Law that's a 91.6 average...and that's an "A" in my book. Pass!

 

Fantastic!  I am a reverent person, but now I get to pick one of the other 11 to ignore.  I'm thinking obedient would be a good one to pass on and still get my A.

 

I like the way you think Mozart.  

 

I'm all in favor of not passing any atheist at an EBOR and let the scout appeal to National.  Let them decide what holds water and what doesn't.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Stosh

[Gone 435]

Fantastic!  I am a reverent person, but now I get to pick one of the other 11 to ignore.  I'm thinking obedient would be a good one to pass on and still get my A.

 

I like the way you think Mozart.  

 

I'm all in favor of not passing any atheist at an EBOR and let the scout appeal to National.  Let them decide what holds water and what doesn't.

Who said an atheist? I said leave the discussion about god or God or higher power off the table in terms of a direct line of questions designed to delve into a very personal area. I'm not sure I know MY relationship with God, so how's a teenager supposed to know. Talk about how they are meeting that part of the law and oath without getting in to if they believe in god or a higher power.

 

Ask him about religion in detail then you might as well ask him about drugs use, cheating in school, sexual activity, lying, has he broken ANY laws (speeding, running stop signs, or worse), is he in debt, etc, as these would also be violations of the Law and Oath; therefor also grounds to fail him. You telling me he should be living up to all of these? Always? Do you? Do any of us?

 

The point being that if you as BOR members hide behind the Scout Law and Oath while trying to discern if a Scout has "faith" or is doing his duty to God, why not delve deeper to find out if he's truly Trustworthy or Clean or whatever. Don't pick one issue on which to fail the kid, go through all of them. Of course that's absurd....just as absurd as pressing a kid about his faith in god looking to fail him.

[packsaddle 753]

OK, from the real world: EBOR, even before this expected change. District guy, "Can you tell us a little about your faith?"

Scout, "Yes"

District guy, "What is it?"

Scout, "I'm a Unitarian Universalist."

District guy, "Tell me more about that, does that mean you're Christian?"

Scout, "No, we are not Christian?"

District guy, "NOT Christian, what does that mean, do you believe in God?"

Scout, "I'm not sure I can explain it to you. It depends on what you think God is? We mostly leave those kinds of things up to each person in our faith. Unitarian Universalism is a little complicated that way"

This is where the District guy turned to the dark side and pressed on about God and atheism, etc.

The Scout was intimidated but in the end he handled it. I was angry about what happened. That scout was awarded Eagle and afterward said he will never think of Scouting in a positive way, ever again. 

That was a good scout and because of this issue and the way it is left to people who are at risk of prejudice to JUDGE scouts, scouting lost someone who could have been an advocate and a positive force in the future. At best this issue, applied the way it was, just added to the contempt toward scouting. 

Moreover,  I can't blame the boy for feeling the way he did. He was betrayed by the process and it made a strong negative impression on me as well. 

This, I think, is an example of what Mozartbrau would like to avoid. Me too. 

[moosetracker 132]

With your line of thinking Mozart the scout could trip up on any points of the law..

 

Q.

How have you lived up to the Oath and the Law?

A.

Well yesterday I did pretty good, I took out the trash and saved a kitten from the tree, but last week was not so good as I lied to my mother that I was going to meet Pete after school but I was really in detention because I was caught smoking in the bathroom.. But last month was rough some good some bad..  I pestered my parents for the new IPhone since all the kids are getting them, when I know the one I have is working just fine, and I lied to the SM about having anything to do with the bent tent pole when it was bent when Billy & I were tussling over it, and I ran away from a spider..  But, on the other hand I did take a shower daily, I stood up for my friend Barney when the school bully started harassing him,  I went to church 2 out of 4 Sundays, and I kept old lady Pritcher company when no one else would because she just prattles on, and on and on..

 

Seriously?  When asked how the scout lives up to the 12th point of the law why couldn't his answer just be  "My religion believes in being helpful and caring for the planet that we have been given, I help in the troop with the younger scouts and at home with the chores, and I help at Christmas & Thanksgiving with collecting food and toys for the needy...  I believe I help care for the planet by taking a lot of Conservation training both in and out of scouts and passing a lot of good ideas along to my  troop, I also help with local recycling projects."

 

Done... No need to delve into the fact that the Scout belongs to the religion of the rock and what the ins and outs for his religion are all about..

[Gone 435]

^^^^^^^

Spot on @@packsaddle!

 

As well as avoiding other issues:

 

BOR: Are you sexually active?

 

Scout: Uh, well I've been in dates.

 

BOR: Have you engaged in sexual acts?

 

Scout: I don't know quite what to say.

 

BOR: Well, if a Scout is "clean" he abides by a moral code that precludes sex outside of marriage. So if you are having sex you are violating the Scout Law and I cannot pass you. Uh, have you ever cheated or lied?

 

Scout: No.

 

BOR: Never? Ever? You've been 100% honest all the time? You've obeyed the law always? You've never cursed? How are your finances? Do you earn your own money or do you mooch off mom and dad still? Does God guide your actions?

 

Scout: I'm sorry, I don't know what to say. My religion and faith are a bit difficult to explain. I live by the tenants of my religion and always try to do my best.

 

BOR: I'm sorry but your answers seem to indict act you're conflicted about how well you live the Oath and Law in your daily life....not just in one area but in many. I'm not sure I can support you going forward.

[Gone 435]

With your line of thinking Mozart the scout could trip up on any points of the law..

 

Seriously?  ..

Yes Seriously. I think you're missing my point.

 

I agree that we discuss the points of the law and oath. I disagree that we dive too deep around religion and other issues. Ask the Scout how he lives the oath and law in his daily life. Fine. Don't ask what religion means to a scout or other too personal questions. I think we all know where the line is here. You're not trying to find reasons to fail a kid in a BOR, you're asking him his thoughts...but ask the generic question and let him fill in the blanks.

 

Don't hold him to an impossible standard.

[Stosh 3452]

As has been proven time and time again, any issue, including the Law and Oath can be taken into the realm of an inquisition where no answer is going to satisfy the inquisitor.  

 

Once people begin to understand the BOR as a pass/fail situation, it opens the door for such abuse.  If all the requirements are met, including a sign-off on Scout Spirit, how can a BOR deny rank?  Oh, yes, it can, it just makes up it's own rules along the way.

 

There's nothing wrong with talking about any and all of the Oath/Law in a BOR.  How's it going?  What do you need to improve? Having a bit of trouble with cheerfulness?  Reverence? Obedience?  Are you making plans/changes to make improvements in those areas?   Where do you see yourself in 5 years, 10 years?  But there's nothing there that says a BOR passes judgement on any of that.  The rank has been earned, BOR's responsibility to help the scout look forward into the next step of his career, not derail it on the spot. Only controlling adults would ever consider doing that.  But that's an issue with the adults, not the Scout.

[Gone 435]

But there's nothing there that says a BOR passes judgement on any of that.  The rank has been earned, BOR's responsibility to help the scout look forward into the next step of his career, not derail it on the spot. Only controlling adults would ever consider doing that.  But that's an issue with the adults, not the Scout.

 

Sadly, many units don't see it that way. They see the SMC or BOR as a chance to quiz or test the kids. 

[moosetracker 132]

Packsaddle took your post and went one way with it, I went the other..

 

Am I thrilled with the changes?? No..

Do I think there will be problems rolling this out when they have left BSA's position on "Duty to God" clear as mud, because they themselves have not felt the need to address it in any training material to date??  Yes..

 

That being said, your scouts have the potential to hit this question at some point in their scouting Career.. It should not be at an EBOR, in which this question may start popping up in more EBOR, because who knows if the Eagle Boards are being instructed to ask the question.. Maybe so many Boards do ask the question because they have been requested to ask it for years now..

 

So Mozart, you can mutter to yourself, and not say anything to your scouts about it.. But walk into an EBOR with a big stick ready to use it on anyone on that board who dares to ask the question.. Thereby doing damage to your scouts reputation as being confident enough to handle the situation for himself.. Or you can take the advise being offered in this thread and figure out a way to prepare your scouts to be able to navigate this line of questioning for themselves..  They should know what BSA's views are about Duty to God, and ideas on how they can convey their duty to God without getting bogged down in the trenches of explaining every sticky detail of their religion.. They should know when a Scouter may be getting too personal with the question or too judgmental with the answer and they should know how to respectfully "school" them about it, and move the topic back to the non-personal side of things..

 

If you can prepare your scouts, they will shine if they are prepared.. But to prepare them, you will need to figure out how to train them for this possibility.. To train them you will need to get over your queasy feelings on the subject.

[packsaddle 753]

Moosetracker, I didn't TAKE IT anywhere except to provide an actual real example of an event that really happened...which illustrated his point. Look closely at what you just wrote. You just admitted that you don't like the change and you think there will be problems. Moreover you have suggested words that boys can use to get around this issue. None of that constitutes support for the change.

 

I think the point is that these scouts shouldn't have to be 'prepped' for this issue in the first place. YOU should not have to offer pat answers that they can memorize in order to 'get around' the issue at a BOR. There shouldn't have to BE a handbook on "How to Survive a Board of Review". 

H'mmm...Interesting. I think it might be fun to write such a handbook. Anyone up for some intense satire? 

Edited April 18, 2015 by packsaddle

[moosetracker 132]

You do not have to give the scouts pat answer.. But, you can give them knowledge about BSA's viewpoints about religion and that Adult Leaders are to be open and non-judgmental of a scouts religious viewpoints no matter how weird.. And you can give them practice with thinking about and answering the question if hit with it in either SMC or BOR for the lower ranks..  But, if you treat the subject as taboo, and your scouts are unprepared, that is your call..

 

When BSA started making a big deal over conservation with adding in "Leave No Trace" some troops poo pooed it and did things the old school way.. So these troops get to a camporee where several stations deal with the patrols having knowledge of basic "Leave No Trace" procedures to successfully navigate the challenge.. The troops didn't prepare the scouts so they do poorly..  The fault of the camporee organizers??

 

Duty to God, like it or not is part of Scouting..  If BSA is going to require everyone to make a bigger deal of it, then they do now.. You either prepare your scouts for that change, or you ignore doing so and let them sink when caught unprepared.. Your choice.