Do We Really Need Eagle Required Merit Badges?

[Gone 435]

SM's signatures are nothing more than an opportunity to let the SM know what's going on.  So the SM signature on a MB blue card is for notification purposes only.  

 

Notifications purposes only? And what if the SM refuses to sign for any reason?

 

 

@@Eagledad is correct. The first place to sign for the SM on a blue card says this:

 

"...is qualified to begin working for the merit badge noted on the reverse side."

 

I always found this odd. MBs are not age-based, so just exactly what criteria are we supposed to use to make sure a scout is "qualified" to begin work on an MB? If they meet the "active" guidelines in the GTA, what else is there?

[TAHAWK 1420]

They probably simply forgot to change the wording from when there was a rank requirement.

[gumbymaster 98]

According to the Merit Badge counselor training I took in February, a Scout Master's signature on the Blue Card is NOT required for the scout to begin work on the Merit Badge, and that the Scout Master, Troop Committee, etc. do NOT have the authority to refuse to allow the scout to work on a Merit Badge nor to question him further on how well he learned the material once the Blue Card is signed.

[Eagledad 2779]

According to the Merit Badge counselor training I took in February, a Scout Master's signature on the Blue Card is NOT required for the scout to begin work on the Merit Badge, and that the Scout Master, Troop Committee, etc. do NOT have the authority to refuse to allow the scout to work on a Merit Badge nor to question him further on how well he learned the material once the Blue Card is signed.

Maybe it's out of date, but it is basically the document we referenced for our counselor training.

 

http://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/TheMeritBadgeProgram.aspx

 

The first 10 paragraphs is over the part we are discussing.

 

Barry

[qwazse 4344]

According to the Merit Badge counselor training I took in February, a Scout Master's signature on the Blue Card is NOT required for the scout to begin work on the Merit Badge, and that the Scout Master, Troop Committee, etc. do NOT have the authority to refuse to allow the scout to work on a Merit Badge nor to question him further on how well he learned the material once the Blue Card is signed.

What this boils down to: if the boy has an opportunity to work on a badge but no chance to get the SM's signature, he can get started and catch up with signatures later. And, it discourages micro-managing a kid's advancement.

 

"Question no further on how well he learned ..." is in the context of determining if the boy deserved the badge. I freely ask boys what they learned from counselors by way of evaluating the counselor. If, for example, you counsel astronomy, and my guy can't point out Casseopia in the night sky, explaining that he never really had to do so, you'll get a call from me.

 

Furthermore, it does not state that you can't question if the boy did the requirements. I do just that if there's any hint that shortcuts were taken. If the boy will admit that a corner was cut, he can do-over ... everybody gets to grow a little.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

SM's signatures are nothing more than an opportunity to let the SM know what's going on.

Unless you actually read the words printed right above your signature that say what your signature means.

[Gone 435]

According to the Merit Badge counselor training I took in February, a Scout Master's signature on the Blue Card is NOT required for the scout to begin work on the Merit Badge, and that the Scout Master, Troop Committee, etc. do NOT have the authority to refuse to allow the scout to work on a Merit Badge nor to question him further on how well he learned the material once the Blue Card is signed.

 

And yet the BSA's own website -- as well as the blue card itself -- says that there are "requires a total of four signatures". Doesn't sound like the signatures are optional. 

 

Given that much of the training I have been forced to take by BSA gives conflicting information (at best), I am going with what is on their official website and official documents.

 

And the SM should already be in the because..." Before he begins working with a merit badge counselor, however, he is to have a discussion with his unit leader."

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[Stosh 3452]

And what might be the qualifications that would not allow a boy to sign up for a MB that the SM has control over?

 

Notifications purposes only? And what if the SM refuses to sign for any reason?

 

It seems the program isn't so independent.

 

Hey, it was just a discussion of what ifs. We will note that you vote to maintain adult control. 

 

Barry 

 

Love the way you like to consistently distort the comments of other to support your point.  

 

At least you're consistent.

 

A boy comes to me with a Blue Card and says he wants to take the class.   

 

SM pencil whips a signature because for all he knows he's already lined up to take it anyway and maybe even started..  Is that the adult controlling part?

 

The boy does the MB and then says he needs the SM signature.

 

SM pencil whips a signature because there's nothing he can do to stop it.  Is that the adult controlling part?

 

MB's are not a troop activity, they are not patrol activity, they are a personal choice by an individual scout.  If the SM is in position to be controlling, all he/she has to do is refuse to sign.   Where in my posts did I suggest a SM is to control the situation by refusing to sign.  I'm saying the pencil whipped signatures really aren't necessary.  But I'll contend that it makes a nice courtesy notification that a MB is going to be started or has started and then a second notification that the MB has been successfully completed.

 

All of that could be done without a signature when a boy shows up with a MB counselor signed blue card.  End of discussion.  The troop, the patrol and the SM really have no real role to play other than to acknowledge the boy is taking a MB.

 

I would concede that a SM could be adult controlling if they were to not sign, but what would be the rationale for not pencil whipping a signature?   I wouldn't know of any.

 

Last summer at summer camp my boys were not yet at the Scout rank, but they all took Wilderness Survival.  2 of the 4 passed.  So one wonders how much the boys retained?  Not an issue.  MB counselor though it was enough.

[Gone 435]

@@Stosh what if the kid requesting the card is taking a class and taking up the last spot in that class. What if that kid has 10 open MBs he has yet to finish. What if this is a pattern with him.

 

I get the SM has little to do, but in some instances the SM is there to maybe keep this kid focused, close out the stuff he's working on and maybe keep him from taking the spot from a kid who wants to finish the MB in a timely manner.

 

I believe in boy-led and the patrol method, but that does not mean there are not a few checks and balances on the boys.

[moosetracker 132]

SM in sons troop monitored how many opem MB's a scout had open, had to have a good reason to open more if you already had 6 open.. SM also monitored who the MBC was, had to be a good reason to have a parent as your MBC.. Most people scouts & parents had no issue with it..

[Stosh 3452]

@@Stosh what if the kid requesting the card is taking a class and taking up the last spot in that class. What if that kid has 10 open MBs he has yet to finish. What if this is a pattern with him.

 

I get the SM has little to do, but in some instances the SM is there to maybe keep this kid focused, close out the stuff he's working on and maybe keep him from taking the spot from a kid who wants to finish the MB in a timely manner.

 

I believe in boy-led and the patrol method, but that does not mean there are not a few checks and balances on the boys.

 

I can see where this could be a problem especially with taking up spots that others need.  However, is the time when the boy shows up with a Blue Card the proper time to discuss this?  I have periodic SMC's with my boys where I bring to light these kinds of issues.... you have X number of unfinished MB's, what's your plan for wrapping them up?  Or like Eagledad said, maybe he was just taking the MB for fun.  Is it the adult's responsibility to look out for his kids or everyone else's kids?  Kind of a proper-time-for-everything, kind of approach.  If one truly believes in a boy taking control over his own destiny, why would one try and stand in his way, just because some adult thought it advantageous to do so?

 

If servant leadership is in place, I as a MB counselor have 10 openings in a class.  I have 10 boys all signed up and then I get a desperate phone call from a boy needing the MB for Eagle and he's screwed around for 6+ years and faces the possibility of not getting Eagle.... (I know this would never happen in real life, but bear with me a bit)  So I am going to do my Good Turn.  I take on the boy, but I break it into two sessions, one with 5 boys and one with 6.  After all I'm a nice guy and I am doing Scouting only for the boys.  So I'm inconvenienced a bit.  It's not the first time, nor is it going to be the last time.  Who knows, maybe that 11th scout may go on to become a MB counselor himself and face the same situation.  What's his experience with it?  Only memories...

[Stosh 3452]

Unless you actually read the words printed right above your signature that say what your signature means.

 

Our council hasn't used Blue Cards for years.  It's all done electronically now.  At the end of camp I get a MB report from the camp director.  That's it.  It's been years since any of my boys have taken a MB outside of summer camp and/or MB university that I don't know what MB counselors do to record progress/mark as signed off.  I don't do MB's myself.

 

I haven't signed off on a blue card except what I pencil whip at summer camp prior to the MB sessions.  I get notice from the MB University people what my boys got credit for.

 

I usually notice where a boy is at with his advancement when I do a periodic review of his progress.  Sometimes that's when I find out he even took a MB.

 

I'm sure other councils handle things differently.

[TAHAWK 1420]

 

 

Typically after the unit leader signs the blue card, the Scout contacts the merit badge counselor and sets an appointment. While a boy may begin working on a merit badge at any time after he is registered, it is the counselor’s decision whether to accept work or activities completed prior to the issuing of the signed blue card. Common sense should prevail, however. For example, nights already camped as a Boy Scout, or coins or stamps already collected, would count toward their respective badges.

 

Sec 7.0.0.2  Guide to Advancement, Boy Scouts of America, 2013 (current version).

[Eagledad 2779]

I would concede that a SM could be adult controlling if they were to not sign, but what would be the rationale for not pencil whipping a signature?

 

It seems that after all the bragging, defending, posturing and preaching, the place where the rest of us are sitting on this "what-if" question has been found. Adding that SM's holding up MBs is pretty common nationally and is brought up often on this forum, removing unit responsibility from the MB process might be worth an intellectual discussion.

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

I have heard of MB counselors not signing off on cards because the boy didn't do the work.  

 

I have heard of SM's not signing at the beginning because their troop has inappropriate rules regarding who can and who can't take MB's.

 

I have never heard of a SM not signing a Blue Card when the MB Counselor has signed off on it.

 

Besides the personal attack, I don't understand the point being made.