Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Like I said, the steps are unecessary, but change is hard. Keep doing it your way.

You says it's unnecessary but experts say otherwise. There are bacteria and viruses that live on surfaces despite using your method. Sanitizing introduces oxidation which breaks down those organisms. I would not call that unnecessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll just add this....

I too am generally of the opinion that washing dishes is primarily to remove the bits that will enable the yukies to grow...

 

and it seems to me the ONLY advantage to this whole bucket method is as @@Hedgehog wrote, to reinforce the patrol method.

 

My observation after attending our recent WEB/Akela weekend, was that the common community wash water is dirtier than my dishes are after I'm finished with my meal!  Yuk!  I'm enough of a germaphobe to not want to put my stuff in that!  Wipe them off and I'm better off.

 

Unless that sanitizing bucket is kept up very well, I see this whole process as a way to cross contaminate the entire troop from the last latrine trip :confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You says it's unnecessary but experts say otherwise. There are bacteria and viruses that live on surfaces despite using your method. Sanitizing introduces oxidation which breaks down those organisms. I would not call that unnecessary.

The claim is that there are organisms to break down. This means in the food. If the organisms come from dirty hands, then this will happen after the your entire process is complete as well. The sanitizing is a waste, there are no organisms to kill, yet. A sterile dish touched by a contaminated hand will become contaminated regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see this as a different problem. Our troop relies on the scouts getting their guidance from documented resources because adult guidance is inconsistent and changes quickly. So the scouts are encourage to use the Scout Handbook. But what happens when the Handbook isn't always the best resource? The scouts fall back to what the closest adult recommends (requires) or another document.

 

I remember once walking by a patrol and a scout yelling at me, "SM Barry, I can't remember the order of the three pot cleaning method?". And just as quickly before I could say it, he followed "Oh ya, look it up in the Handbook". I love it when a plan comes together.

 

Of course Philmont and just about all the other High Adventure camps do it different because using three pots in the wilderness isn't practical. So now what is an independent thinking scout supposed to do?

 

Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The claim is that there are organisms to break down. This means in the food. If the organisms come from dirty hands, then this will happen after the your entire process is complete as well. The sanitizing is a waste, there are no organisms to kill, yet. A sterile dish touched by a contaminated hand will become contaminated regardless.

 

Nope. I am talking about air born, food born, water born, etc. Even assuming hands are clean, using your method and not sanitizing you run the risk of not fully killing something. Again, assuming hands are clean, adding sanitizing to the process goes that extra step to kill what might be left hanging around.

 

I agree clean hands, good hygiene and proper storage techniques are also important, but sanitizing is not a frivolous step.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time my son went to philmont a couple years ago it was lick your bowl and spork clean as you can, scaping with he spork.  add hot water, swish and stir to finish getting it clean then drink the "soup" with all the food particles.  Then dip in boiling water to sanitize and let dry in mesh hanging bag.  I think that would probably be a good idea to use on most campouts. the sanitizing rinse water tends to get so yucky by the end that it's not sanitizing much of anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the pre-clean, wash and rinse are done properly, the sanitizing water should be the cleanest. If not, then the preceding steps are not being done correctly.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A dip in boiling water serves as sanitization and will kill all those viruses and germs that washing hasn't done - no need for sanitizing pills or bleach unless you're using a cool/warm water method.  Of course, once it's been sanitized, and is being air dried because that's another step in the process to help prevent germs from being spread by towels, there is nothing to prevent new airborne viruses from attaching themselves to your air-drying plates - sanitization kills what may already be on the plate - it's doesn't provide a layer that prevents new germs from settling in.

 

Regardless of whether you choose to sanitize or not at the end of the dishwashing cycle, the real key is to make sure there is no leftover food stuffs (including grease) on the dishes - no amount of dunking a plate with a crusty bit of food stuck to it in bleach, even undiluted bleach, will prevent the little nasties from growing in that food  - most germs, bacteria and viruses, airborne or water borne, require a medium to grow on - and it will be crusty food bits or grease that will provide the best medium, not clean, bare metal or plastic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Scrape dishes as clean as possible into the sump.  Yes, there is a proper way of doing that besides dumping in the garbage and having it leak food smells in the camp to attract animals.

 

2) Wash dishes in hot soapy water.  This does not need to have 500 people use the same small pan of wash water.  If it gets filled with food scraps because the boys didn't do #1 correctly.  Switch it out with clean wash water.  A small patrol shouldn't have a problem with this, but those units that operate under a troop-method approach will find it necessary to switch out wash water quite a few times before getting dishes for 40 boys cleaned.

 

3) Rinse off the soap only from the cleaned dishes in cold sanitized water to remove the soap.  

 

4) Dip in scalding hot water to heat up the dishes to dry faster.

 

5) Air dry on a rack or in a mesh bag.

 

 

When I backpack I carry a spoon and a large tin cup.  

 

1) Eat every little bit of food served.  Rinse with a splash of water from canteen or other water source

 

2) Fill with water and put water purification in the cup and put in spoon.  Let sit for an hour.  Dump the water into your water bottle or drink. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@@CalicoPenn a mere "dipping" in boiling water will not "kill all those germs" washing hasn't. Some viruses and bacteria must be boiled a certain length of time to kill them, so mere dipping will not suffice.

 

I've been on back country treks where giardia was present in the rinse water. It was boiled but not long enough. The whole crew was down two days with the runs and fever.

 

If you insist on not sanitizing you run high risks. If boiling is your sanitizing step then soaking in water boiled for a length of time is the proper process....not dipping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd consider leaving the dishes in a mesh bag in boiling water for a minute to be a dip, and that would be the recommendation of the CDC for Giardia.  They also recommend that the water be boiling for at least 3 minutes before doing so.

 

Sounds to me like the problem wasn't poorly sanitized dishes, but poorly purified water - and I would find it hard to pinpoint a Giardia infection to poorly sanitized dishes in the backwoods - if folks took a dip in the stream or lake that had Giardia in it, that could do it - or using the water for cooking and not properly purifying it.

 

Is there a risk with not sanitizing dishes?  Sure, but it is a very small risk compared to other risks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd consider leaving the dishes in a mesh bag in boiling water for a minute to be a dip, and that would be the recommendation of the CDC for Giardia.  They also recommend that the water be boiling for at least 3 minutes before doing so.

 

Sounds to me like the problem wasn't poorly sanitized dishes, but poorly purified water - and I would find it hard to pinpoint a Giardia infection to poorly sanitized dishes in the backwoods - if folks took a dip in the stream or lake that had Giardia in it, that could do it - or using the water for cooking and not properly purifying it.

 

Is there a risk with not sanitizing dishes?  Sure, but it is a very small risk compared to other risks.

 

If you don't boil the water long enough, there's how it happens.

 

We trained the crew on these guidelines...someone just cut corners. Same thing happens all the time in patrol KP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@

 

I don't think that what your boys got in the back country was Giardia.  It takes two weeks of incubation in the body and you're not just down for two days.  Sounds like your boys might have gotten something in the food, not water.

 

At the BWCA, we were EXTREMELY diligent with the water purification.  We filtered and then boiled.  Unfortunately one of the boys went snorkeling.  Two weeks later he was in the hospital.  He was one sick puppy.  Every time he went into the bathroom he didn't know whether to sit down or stand up.  In a week's time of antibiotics he went from 175# to 135# and was on IV's for most  of the time.  Improperly processed water is not a battle one wishes to deal with.  I didn't know you could lose 40# of water out of your system like that.  Scary stuff.

 

If I were to guess on your boys, either the soap wasn't rinsed properly, cross contamination in food preparation or some food went bad on you.  Any of these will give a brief illness like the one you describe.

 

No matter what it was, training in safe food handling is not a T-FC requirement that is to be glossed over.  My #1 rule, safety first and if an adult doesn't feel comfortable about the way the boys are handling food and cleanup, they have a responsibility to step in and correct it on the spot.

Edited by Stosh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that what your boys got in the back country was Giardia.  It takes two weeks of incubation in the body and you're not just down for two days.  Sounds like your boys might have gotten something in the food, not water.

@@Stosh, we are note 100% sure. The doc with us narrowed it down to salmonellosis, cyclosporiasis, or giardiasis. We were in the back country for two weeks, plus a few days prior for acclimation. It was possible given a one week incubation period of any of these. Since we had it on the trail by the time we got back to civilization we had tests done but nothing conclusive.

 

It was clear someone did not follow boiling guidelines at altitude.

Edited by Bad Wolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, we've always done double duty.  If we have the wood, we filter and boil, otherwise we filter and purify.

 

No matter what I do, food and water on any trek is of major importance to me.

 

The boy in my reference was sick 2 weeks after we got back.  The doctors had no idea what was going on with him at that point.  Then after a massive amount of tests one of the doctors that was called in for brain-storming consultation simply asked, "Where were you two weeks ago?"  The parents said, "BWCA".  Doctor said, "Giardia" and walked out of the room.  Yep, he was right.  That doctor spent many weekends in the woods and knew what was up.  :)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×