Gone 435 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I searched the archive and could not find the answer to this question: Does BSA allow units to create a "blanket" permission slip to cover standard camp outs (e.g., camp outs that don't have shooting sports, water sports or other high risk activities)? Or does BSA require units to have permission slips unique for each event? I'd love it if anyone can point me to a policy online. We obviously want to stay in line with BSA guidelines. Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites
tonkatim 26 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 We use the form that comes with Pack Master. It is fillable to customize for each activity. Including pick up times for the Cubs and other things that change per activity/event. In answer to your question about a Blanket form; I do not know the official BSA guideline. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The BSA has a permission slip form: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-673.pdf They recommend that is be used by units for outings and that it be used for each outing rather than as a blanket form. However, they only recommend that it be used. They do not require a permission slip to be used for any outings, EXCEPT for any outings that involve flying. If an outing involves flying, then the permission slip MUST be used, and I'm sure their legal counsel would prefer that this particular form be used. This isn't required just for outings where a unit may take a commercial flight from say Chicago to Seattle to hike Mt. Ranier (and wouldn't THAT be a cool high adventure trip for the Scouts), it would also be used if you had arranged a flight on a B-17 Flying Fortress at the EAA museum in Oshkosh. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Torchwood 177 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 We use a separate slip for each trip- allows us to collect any funds as well as create the roster of Scouts (and needed adults) on a per trip basis. Makes life easy for the Committee person and Scout team that organizes each trip. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 We have treated the youth application and rechartering as a sort of blanket permission slip. We're a small troop and crew. However, I am moving to an individual permission slip as a lot of outdoor companies aren't requiring release forms. E.g., the ski resort now says acceptance of a lift-ticket and the fine print on the back is an inherent waiver. They're finding that a waiver isn't gonna stop a lawyer from coming after you for negligence, so why irritate customers by making them sign it? The BSA form works just fine. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RichardB 219 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/04/10/ask-the-expert-the-who-when-and-why-of-scout-permission-slips/ Very Similar to OP question. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle94-A1 2685 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 So if we are suppose to use the BSA's waiver for every trip, then why do we have Part A of the Annual Health and Medical Form, which states "Informed Consent, Release Agreement, and Authorization" and has wording that is identical to the waiver. Plus it also has the photo release added to it. In all honesty, this is extremely frustrating. We need to carry 2 sets of forms with the same information? Ridiculous. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RichardB 219 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 No one says you have to use the BSA consent form (many units or councils publish their own, specifically designed for their state or normal operations). As an adult, don't you want permission to take that youth on whatever tour or activity you plan to do as a unit right? Perhaps you have a different system your chartered organization already uses for other programs, that would work as well. The goal isn't to fill out a form, the goal is to make sure that parents are aware of the kind of activities their youth will be participating in..." Hard to do with a one time / once a year lets cover everything note.....Let me say again, the goal is not to fill out a form...... And if you read through the information on the medical record (FAQ's or Instructions) the four reasons BSA uses them are spelled out....Again, nothing in there about the goal being to fill out a form..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Does this not paint you into a corner? What happens when the opportunity for something different presents itself on a campout? Another troop has the climbing wall open and invites your Scouts to climb? The shooting sports director is working at the range and offers to open it? Or the campsite includes a couple of canoes? (Our troop has been on both the offering and receiving end of all of these.) Does "camping" on the permission slip cover it or do you have to decline the invitation? I'm no lawyer, but it would seem to me an annual, detailed, state-specific permission slip covering all activities authorized by the Guide to Safe Scouting would be more appropriate. How many volunteer-drafted permission slips just say "camping"? "What? No one told me my son would be using an ax on this camping trip! What kind of irresponsible people are running this program!?" I also think the basic membership documents should place more responsibility on the parents to understand the various Scouting activities and to know what their troop has planned. It is hard for me to comprehend a parent dropping their son off with a bunch of folks they don't know and have no idea what they will be doing for the next two days. But then I've learned not to bet against it either. It is also bewildering BSA doesn't have a training course for parents teaching them what Scouting is all about, what their sons are in for and all the potential benefits and liabilities. (Our troop has it's own program for new parents). And hey, if the parents fail to take the course, that's a high card BSA's lawyers can play if needed. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I have been told by my lawyer friends the permission slips are pretty much not worth the paper they are written on. If someone gives permission to go on a trip and the parents' lawyer says you were negligent, what good is the permission slip? You didn't kidnap the kid, you had permission to take him along, but generally that's not what one is suing about. Even if there is waiver language in the document, negligence can still be a factor the lawyers zoom in on. Heck, a legal guardian and/or parent can be held accountable for negligence and they don't carry around permission slips or waivers. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I have been told by my lawyer friends the permission slips are pretty much not worth the paper they are written on. If someone gives permission to go on a trip and the parents' lawyer says you were negligent, what good is the permission slip? You didn't kidnap the kid, you had permission to take him along, but generally that's not what one is suing about. Even if there is waiver language in the document, negligence can still be a factor the lawyers zoom in on. Heck, a legal guardian and/or parent can be held accountable for negligence and they don't carry around permission slips or waivers. Stosh While I do agree that the permission slips don't mean much, I can just imagine what a lawyer would do in the case of an absence of one. The permission slip doesn't protect you from the suit, but not having one will be just that much worse. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Does this not paint you into a corner? What happens when the opportunity for something different presents itself on a campout? Another troop has the climbing wall open and invites your Scouts to climb? The shooting sports director is working at the range and offers to open it? Or the campsite includes a couple of canoes? (Our troop has been on both the offering and receiving end of all of these.) Does "camping" on the permission slip cover it or do you have to decline the invitation? Since climbing or shooting sports are not on your tour plan, you cannot. Remember this all links back to other documents. You can't go canoeing simply because the canoes are open. Have you done your swim tests? Have you done your water sports training? Are guys grouped by known swimming ability? Our unit sticks to our tour plan and itinerary. IF something "neutral" like going to a wild life refuge or taking a nature hike presents itself then great. If something like go-karts or shooting or climbing or water sports presents itself we have to ask: 1) Does our tour permit cover it? 2) Do we have the appropriate people trained to manage this new activity? 3) Are the boys trained/prepared according to BSA guidelines? 4) Will we run afoul of our tour plan, permission slip or any other BSA policy. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What would really be helpful here is a tally of suits brought on scouters who did not administer permission slips vs. those who did. A tally of judgments for the plaintiff in one vs. the other. And damages awarded. In a perfect world we would get settlements as well, but those are always sealed. Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/04/10/ask-the-expert-the-who-when-and-why-of-scout-permission-slips/ Very Similar to OP question. I wanted to thank you guys for the discussion and links. This has helped my unit decide on a course of action. We are going to revise the BSA release form slightly and use it on each event we hold. We will submit electronically to our events person and continue to collect payment via our website. This should both cover us from a permission/information perspective and reduce paperwork. While I long for the days when the boys just showed up with $15 and gave it to their Patrol Scribe who gave the money to the Treasurer, those days are gone. Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 While I do agree that the permission slips don't mean much, I can just imagine what a lawyer would do in the case of an absence of one. The permission slip doesn't protect you from the suit, but not having one will be just that much worse. I would agree. We will retain our permission forms electronically and delete after 6 months. Link to post Share on other sites
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