Stosh 3452 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There's an elephant in the room, when is this thread going to address that? Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There's an elephant in the room' date=' when is this thread going to address that? [/quote'] Which elephant would you be referring to? As far as I can see we have discussed this from every direction. What have we missed? Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You can be a homosexual "youth" member in Venturing between 18 & 21, but during that time you can't be a Boy Scout leader. Someone's going to question that unless the age of youth drops down to legal 18. Just one of those hypocritical issues that slips in and I'm suspicious that this might be the real reason behind the age shuffling in the Venturing program. Now one registeres as an adult but is somehow magically honored by being an participant. There is no other real reason for the switch. They have been doing it as a double standard for 15 years, so why the sudden change? Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 You can be a homosexual "youth" member in Venturing between 18 & 21... That WAS true until three days ago. Or to be more precise, it was true from Jan. 1, 2014 through Feb. 28, 2015. It's no longer true. Now an 18 year old in a traditional BSA program, whether "youth" or "adult", must meet "adult membership standards" - BSA code-speak for avowedly heterosexual. There was no elephant - there was an inconsistency, which has now been eliminated. Not in the way I would have done it, of course. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Every action has it's motive..... Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Every action has it's motive..... Let's accept that for the moment, but it does not explain your remark about the elephant in the room, nor does it explain your statement that I quoted above, which was not correct. It seems clear that the motive for this change was to draw a bright line, with no exceptions, at the age of 18, past which the BSA will not allow anyone to remain as a participant in a traditional program (Cubs, Boy Scouts including OA, Varsity Scouts and Venturing, and presumably uniformed district, council and National positions as well) if they are openly gay, regardless of whether that participation is as a "youth", "adult", "leader" or anything else. There are other aspects of the new policy, such as background checks, impact of YP guidelines on particular situations, some terminology, etc., but I believe those issues are just "along for the ride" with the real motive. Do you, or anybody else, disagree with that? Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 No. Some how BSA managed to live with (some would say "wallowed in", others "reveled in") the ambiguity until this year. The elephant showed up in May of last year. Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 It's a shame that it took the membership issues to clarify such a stupid policy regarding who is adults and who is not. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Hypocrisy has a terrible time justifying itself over the long run. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Just read thru the whole thread. I are a UC, ADC, RTC. We presently do not have a Venture RT, but two of the ( rare) Scoutships in our Council. I must agree with much that has been said. The new rules promulgated are sure to make things "interesting" (in the Chinese blessing way, as my mom used to say). WHY NOT just say the Scout is an adult at age 18 and be done with it? Venture Scouting can be just that, an adult (or almost adult) thing? The VCAdvisor needs to be over 21, but there you are.... As Scoutson approaches 21, (next month!) it has not been easy for him to admit to being in an adult role, going to CCollege, making a respectable paycheck (he drives a snow plow of late ), realizing that the GF of the last almost two years is NOT "the one", paying for his truck's repairs and insurance, doing his own laundry (yep, now he buys grey underwear so the bleeding tshirts don't show). He is long gone from his Venturing/Scouting days, but will still show up at an Eagle project. Doesn't seem that long ago he was needing a pillow behind his back to drive the riding mower... I say divide it at 18 for all Scout relationships. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 .... As Scoutson approaches 21, (next month!) it has not been easy for him to admit to being in an adult role, going to CCollege, ... I say divide it at 18 for all Scout relationships. Okay folks, the real elephant in the room is this: Suppose Scoutson had enrolled at Pitt then joined my crew for some spring break trip, and was "a little chatty" with one of my HS girls. You betcha her dad would be calling me asking me what I "really" knew about "that guy" and all but guaranteeing that his daughter would not be going on any crew outing until I knew his back-story in full. When a flag goes, up on an adult ... every unit in which he/she is registered is notified. Thus, when the lawyer comes looking for who to blame for a repeat statutory violation, BSA can say it's done due diligence. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Quarse, that scenario has been around since day 1 in Venturing, 15 years!. Nothing new to report on that front. College sophomores/juniors have been chatting it up with high school freshmen for quite some time. Unfortunately it is not the new elephant, it's the one I've been commenting on well before I even got on this forum. I have been lucky in my case in that I have more experience in co-ed youth groups than with scouting Exploring/Venturing so my radar is always on. This new elephant, sexual orientation came back to bite the BSA when the double whammy of age AND orientation played out in the original hypocrisy of age differences. If adult venturers can be homosexual in one program, why not the other programs? That's a hotter social topic than just age. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 ... If adult venturers can be homosexual in one program' date=' why not the other programs? That's a hotter social topic than just age. ...[/quote'] Hotter, but nowhere near as damning. We may count on our closed fists the number of suits that would make it through because BSA failed to screen an homosexual 18 year old from the venturing program. On the other hand, for more than a decade, an adult with a record could "slip under the radar" by signing on as a youth in a venturing crew then easily volunteer to assist "unofficially" an associated troop without completing adult paperwork. That's a big loophole ... easy pickings for some injury lawyer. The background check, to my knowledge, has no "gaydar". How is it in any practical way impeding a homosexual venturer? Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 There isn't unless the person outs themselves or other out them. Hit or miss at best. I knew one of one of my Eagle scouts that was seriously questioning his orientation and as it turns out, it opens the flood gates to a whole new issue that BSA is going to have to some day address. What do you do with homosexual Eagle Scouts who want to be troop leaders? Like one can't see that train wreck coming down the tracks..... Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 ... What do you do with homosexual Eagle Scouts who want to be troop leaders? Like one can't see that train wreck coming down the tracks..... Again you are talking about an existing train wreck .... that elephant is in another room. I suspect most youth are indignant about the whole proposition. I figure most of my 18+ year olds aren't gonna bother with the application and be out the door regardless of orientation. They simply won't feel like bothering with one more piece of paperwork. If a couple of indignant homosexuals are out the door as well, I'll probably never know. Link to post Share on other sites
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