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andysmom

delayed/deferred/denied rank advancement after BOR. Why?

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Please somebody put a plus in front of that one.

 

Mash, work for smiles, buddy. Even when others won't.

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So aftermath, met with the CC and our UC to discuss the issue.  The CC talked to the parents and the parents demanded the rank be awarded and I apologize to the boy.  We said no, and they want to talk with us in person.  I will bring a transfer application with me for that discussion for them.....

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Sorry you are having to go through this.

 

Hopefully when they are face to face, this goes smoothly. In my own time, the in person meetings often work out the best.

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Yes sir. I do apologize. I apologize for attempting to teach your son that trustworthy is the first in the Scout Law, I apologize for my opinion it is first for a reason. I apologize for attempting to instill in your son that helpful ,friendly, courteous, kind, obedient cheerful, and reverent all deal with being respectful in some manner. I apologize for hoping that you and your son know that Oath really means one will their best to be helpful to others and obey the Scout Law at all times. I apologize for working diligently to help you build a young man of character. And lastly, as an Eagle Scout, I apologize for believing that you, as an Eagle Scout, would understand this better than most.

 

That is my snarky inner self answer. Of course I would not say it that way, but try to take the high road. But I wouldn't apologize for doing my job as a leader, unless of course I felt I had stepped out of line, but doesn't appear to be the case here.

 

As a trainer, and Eagle Scout, it baffles me that some of the most difficult to train are too often Eagle Scouts. Though by now I should be accustomed to it.

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I had a few scouts transfer out after my head to head meeting with the parents. I listened patiently and then quietly replied to how and why my actions with their son were appropriate, and supported by the troop committee. I would remain consistent with my scoutmaster style. I tried to not lead the meeting a do or die type of conclusion, but I did leave them an out that there are other programs in the area they might find more acceptable for their family. Sadly, in most cases the scout didn't want to leave.

 

I did track many of those scouts through my sons and about half them aged out of their other troop program because their parents stayed involved. 

 

Barry

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Yes sir. I do apologize. I apologize for attempting to teach your son that trustworthy is the first in the Scout Law, I apologize for my opinion it is first for a reason. I apologize for attempting to instill in your son that helpful ,friendly, courteous, kind, obedient cheerful, and reverent all deal with being respectful in some manner. I apologize for hoping that you and your son know that Oath really means one will their best to be helpful to others and obey the Scout Law at all times. I apologize for working diligently to help you build a young man of character. And lastly, as an Eagle Scout, I apologize for believing that you, as an Eagle Scout, would understand this better than most.

 

That is my snarky inner self answer. Of course I would not say it that way, but try to take the high road. But I wouldn't apologize for doing my job as a leader, unless of course I felt I had stepped out of line, but doesn't appear to be the case here.

 

As a trainer, and Eagle Scout, it baffles me that some of the most difficult to train are too often Eagle Scouts. Though by now I should be accustomed to it.

I love it, I wish I could say that at the Court of Honor scout master minute in front of the troop.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the support.

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Mashmaster, this type of thing just plain sucks. You try and do the right thing and then someone dumps on you. You sound like you're not happy with it and that's a sign that you're doing the right thing. My guess is you're replaying everything that happened and checking your actions. Honestly, you are the keeper of the flame. You set the standard and everyone else will appreciate it and respect you for doing it.

 

I'm just going to blather on so you know you aren't alone.

 

I had to talk to parents a couple of times (reference: weed at summer camp) and once or twice we'd get into this discussion where we just didn't agree on what's right and I just wanted to end it. So the parent would say something along the lines of it's not that big a deal, lots of kids do this. Then I would say, but not in my troop, your son is the only one doing it. That pretty much ends the discussion and the family leaves the troop.

 

It's when the parent tells you that you have to apologize that you know it's over. For me, when I get to the point that I'm telling a scout he has some work to do, I've spent some time thinking about it and replaying what happened to make sure I'm being reasonable. I've apologized to lots of scouts for getting mad or going to far or just having a bad day and taking it out on them so I know when I've made a mistake.

 

Finally, and most importantly, this will pass and you'll have a good day where a parent or scout thanks you.

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Frustrated about a scout that doesn't follow the scout law (lying and disrespectful to adults), want to be signed off for Star rank.  Tell him he needs to improve and tell him what he needs to do for the sign off.  Parents come rolling in bitching and moaning how I am picking on their son.  Parents are the hardest part of the role for sure.

That's why every rank has a requirement to "demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law." How can that requirement be signed off if he's lying and being disrespectful?

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That's why every rank has a requirement to "demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law." How can that requirement be signed off if he's lying and being disrespectful?

Demonstrate Scout Spirit and Living the Scout Oath and Law has been a source of contention since the day it was given power to judge a boys behavior. It's nothing new. The struggle is that there isn't a defined set of actions for Demonstrating Scout Sprite, and the result are different adult interpretations of Scout Oath and Law. You would not believe how many times National deals with this conflict on Eagle applications. And 9 times out of 10, the scout wins. Or maybe it is better understood that the troop leadership looses.

 

So what is a parent supposed to do when they feel their child is being wronged by some self-righteous adult whose only authority is some traditional paper hierarchy of a national youth organization. They stand up against the oppression of course. Sadly, the side with the greater pride is the winner because after all, volunteerism isn't worth the heart-ach. And, ironically, Scout Spirit takes a beating because the adult role modes can't play nicely. 

 

As our program grew and the Scoutmaster matured along with learning from the experiences of dealing with the high expectations of parents, we got better at explaining what new families should expect from the program. And I know it worked because I got fewer calls in the evening from parents who felt they weren't getting their monies worth.

 

Of course no matter how much we preach our expectations and methods of reaching those expectations, some parents still struggle with their son's less than perfect performance. So, they try to push back.

 

Units the deal with these conflicts the best are the ones that maintain a consistent program. Troops with strong Committee Chairman have the least trouble because they usually work side-by-side with the SM. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the scoutmaster's perform, everybody look's up to them for program direction. So if the CC and SM have a full understanding and agreement of the vision (expectations) and the methods for working toward those expectations, the program is strong; no matter how weak it is.

 

That is why I always encourage CC's take the Scoutmaster Fundamentals training with the SM. They rarely do, but the point is understood.

 

Generally units search first for a SM to build a strong program. But I encourage units to first find a "strong" CC, because they will find the "strong" SM and the two together will build an outstanding program.

 

I kind of went off on a rabbit trail or two, sorry.

 

Barry

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Units the deal with these conflicts the best are the ones that maintain a consistent program. 

 

I agree.  Conflict, scout behavior or specific incidents ... It's best to address them early.  Things fester.  

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That's why every rank has a requirement to "demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law." How can that requirement be signed off if he's lying and being disrespectful?

On of my ASMs signed off on this months ago....  sigh

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On of my ASMs signed off on this months ago....  sigh

Interesting. It's signed off by the SM at the SMC for us. One more thing we likely do wrong. But I don't agree with the idea that a scout only has to not lie for 6 months out of a much longer period to qualify for "scout spirit".

 

It's fairly clear to me that judging character is hard to do. My suggestion to any SM is make it consistent, be humble, and stick with your principles. No two SMs will look at the same situation and come up with the exact same opinion of what should be done. That doesn't mean everyone should just give up and say character doesn't count. You do your best and call it a day. The odds are in your favor that you're doing better than just ignoring kids that ignore scouting principles.

 

I will add that I never prevented a scout from getting Eagle and always had a way for them to "make things right." That was never a problem because I always made sure there was time. The problem was the parents that didn't agree that anything needed to be fixed. It didn't happen very often but it sure sucked the fun out of scouts.

 

I also know I'm no longer SM and I refuse to sign off any sort of advancement anymore, for exactly this issue. It's for someone else to do now. It's not easy and I respect anyone that tries.

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