JoeBob 606 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Pawns though they may be' date=' jihadists are not deterred by feeble attempts at twisting their superstitions.[/quote'] Qwazse, you're probably right. Oversimplified. So what are non-Muslims going to do? As SM I frequently have religious discussions with my boys regarding their Ad Altare Dei requirements. (We're a Catholic CO, so religion is a good topic.) Christians in Egypt are being exterminated. Arab countries impose the death penalty if you stop being a Muslim. Jihadists are beheading Christian aid workers on YouTube. In the US, Christianity is being diminished while Islam is being afforded special protections. In France cartoonists are murdered. If non-Muslims keep turning the other cheek, it seems like everyone still alive in 50 years will be Muslim . How is this relevant to Scouting? My troop isn't ashamed of 'Reverent'; and we certainly believe in 'Be prepared'. I'm seeking ideas on what to prepare for and how. No more head in the sand hoping it goes away. Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3664 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Qwazse, you're probably right. Oversimplified. So what are non-Muslims going to do? As SM I frequently have religious discussions with my boys regarding their Ad Altare Dei requirements. (We're a Catholic CO, so religion is a good topic.) Christians in Egypt are being exterminated. Arab countries impose the death penalty if you stop being a Muslim. Jihadists are beheading Christian aid workers on YouTube. In the US, Christianity is being diminished while Islam is being afforded special protections. In France cartoonists are murdered. If non-Muslims keep turning the other cheek, it seems like everyone still alive in 50 years will be Muslim . How is this relevant to Scouting? My troop isn't ashamed of 'Reverent'; and we certainly believe in 'Be prepared'. I'm seeking ideas on what to prepare for and how. No more head in the sand hoping it goes away. Good points. I occasionally discuss values (our freedoms), tolerance, respect, expectations, and vigilance around recent events at camp, school, town, the world. I need to learn and think more about this and discuss with my scouts more. As citizens, what response should we have to a group here who use their religion/ethnicity/position/affiliation/circumstances/whatever excuse to justify their crimes or suppress our freedoms? Can we have pocket communities which are free to be apart from America's laws and values, can a house divided still stand? Are we to be a nation with a rule of law? And many more questions... Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't know what the effects are for other religions, but the more Christians have been persecuted, the stronger they become. Well, at least for the past 2000 years, that 's been the case. The true religions of the world will eventually tire of this and step up and deal with it. Until they become convinced it will continue. As long as Satan thinks he can get away with it, it will continue. ("One Tin Soldier") This is nothing new. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Qwazse, you're probably right. Oversimplified. So what are non-Muslims going to do?... How is this relevant to Scouting? My troop isn't ashamed of 'Reverent'; and we certainly believe in 'Be prepared'. I'm seeking ideas on what to prepare for and how. No more head in the sand hoping it goes away. Excellent questions! Some uncomfortable answers: Engage lovingly by learning the arguments for and against the other faith.This includes Getting to know the the occasional zealot. Understanding what they value. Learning their language. Distinguishing the thugs from the idealists. Reminding zealots that in their hey-day, Islamic empires benefited from the good graces of their non-muslim citizens, and in its dark ages Christian Europe marginalized non-Christian (sometimes non-catholic) citizens. The Soviets marginalized everyone who would not put the state above all else. Things weren't all that great when our countrymen started demonizing godless communists, and when they stopped being communist, the simply godless. The general consensus after centuries of observation: a healthy society grants folks a little room to be themselves. Admitting where your people may have sold out your faith a little for the sake of your culture. Learning how to communicate what your religion has taught you about handling provocations. Prepare youth to oppose thuggery wherever it may appear. This means figuring out how to stand up against and command the respect of brute force bullies. It also means figuring out how to stand up against and command the respect of those who openly mock others. Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Pack - my response is I'm seeing a spirited conversation about a difficult and touchy subject that can easily make many feel uncomfortable. What I'm not seeing is people attacking each other for their viewpoints. It seems to me people are actually walking on eggshells a bit, perhaps because it is such a difficult topic, and trying hard to understand each other. It's one thing if people just use it as an excuse to bash each other - then by all means, shut a thread down. But I'm not sure we should be so quick to demand a thread (or even an entire section) be shut down because a topic brings us out of our comfort zone and makes us think. At this point in the thread, I wouldn't even find it objectionable for Scouts (and maybe not all, maybe High School level) to read these entries - seems to me that citizenship sometimes requires us to dive into discussions that aren't all rainbows, puppies and lollipops. JoeBob - I'm not convinced on your argument about Muslims getting better treatment than Christians in the US. The example of the foot washing stations at the Minneapolis Airport seems a bit shallow to me (pun not intended). The Minneapolis area has a great number of Muslims in it and yes, for many, they have a religious imperative to wash their feet at certain points of the day. I don't think the lack of foot washing stations would stop them - in fact, I know it doesn't. We can "say" that the airport is just kowtowing to the Muslims by putting in the foot baths, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that's whay they did it. They will say (and have said numerous times) that the reason they installed the foot baths was for sanitary purposes - to prevent people from washing their feet in the sinks. I don't know about you but I find that a pretty reasonable argument. Is this somehow unfair to Christians? Gee, I don't know - the airport does have a chapel on site and a chaplaincy staff with Christians in the majority. I don't think it has anything to do with Christmas or the 10 commandments. I simply don't believe that Christians are being persecuted any more than any other religious group is being persecuted. ISIS? They've killed more Muslims than Christians. Muslim extemists that aren't ISIS? They've killed more Muslims than Christians. That isn't to say that there aren't any Christians in the world being persecuted - there clearly are - in other countries, but not here in North America. Being wished Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is not persecution. Requiring equal representation on the courthouse lawn is not persecution in a country with a Constitution that demands Government treat all religions equally. Telling teachers they cannot lead prayers in school (while allowing students and teachers the right to pray privately for themselves at their desks if they wish) is not persecution. If anything, Christians are the persecutors in this country. I don't see Muslim neighborhoods demanding that local governments not approve Christian Churches because of "parking and traffic and safety - not because we're against their religions" like I see Christians demanding that local governments not approve of Mosques. I don't see Christians being told by the police to take down Christian flags flying on their own property the way I see Muslims being told to take down Islamic flags because they offend the neighbors. I don't see Muslims or Jews vandalizing churches with graffiti like I see Christians vandalizing mosques and synagogues. I don't see Muslims or Jews or Pagans or (name your alternative religion here) burning down black churches the way we've seen Christians burning down black churches. I don't see Muslims or Jews shooting abortion doctors the way we've seen Christians do so. Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I find it amusing that in the wake of the Paris shootings the ideas of a lot of dead white European men were revived and put on display last week after being reviled and riduculed for half a century. And what happened to multiculturalism last week? It wasn't much on display, was it? Instead, what was trumpeted by the educated elites was that it was freedom of the press whether you and your cultural group happened to like it or not. And what about the arson, murders, looting and mayhem in the wake of the Ferguson, Ms decision? How is that any different than the Paris shootings? It's all a part of political groups deciding they are free to ignore the law and act on their own rules to promote their political agenda. The chickens are coming home to roost on multiculturalism. Liberals find that ideology very attractive until they find groups targeting them and their ideas, instead of them targeting other groups to harass and initimidate. Link to post Share on other sites
Rick_in_CA 401 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I simply don't believe that Christians are being persecuted any more than any other religious group is being persecuted. ISIS? They've killed more Muslims than Christians. Muslim extemists that aren't ISIS? They've killed more Muslims than Christians. That isn't to say that there aren't any Christians in the world being persecuted - there clearly are - in other countries' date=' but not here in North America. Being wished Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is not persecution. Requiring equal representation on the courthouse lawn is not persecution in a country with a Constitution that demands Government treat all religions equally. Telling teachers they cannot lead prayers in school (while allowing students and teachers the right to pray privately for themselves at their desks if they wish) is not persecution. If anything, Christians are the persecutors in this country. I don't see Muslim neighborhoods demanding that local governments not approve Christian Churches because of "parking and traffic and safety - not because we're against their religions" like I see Christians demanding that local governments not approve of Mosques. I don't see Christians being told by the police to take down Christian flags flying on their own property the way I see Muslims being told to take down Islamic flags because they offend the neighbors. I don't see Muslims or Jews vandalizing churches with graffiti like I see Christians vandalizing mosques and synagogues. I don't see Muslims or Jews or Pagans or (name your alternative religion here) burning down black churches the way we've seen Christians burning down black churches. I don't see Muslims or Jews shooting abortion doctors the way we've seen Christians do so.[/quote'] All very good points. But I'm afraid you are bringing facts into a fact-free fight (facts have a well known liberal bias). The religious right isn't interested in facts. The idea that Christianity is under attack in the US is heavily sold, even if there aren't any real facts to back it up (example: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/faith-freedom-coalition-runs-bogus-war-christmas-story). One of the reasons for this (besides being a great fund raiser for religious right organizations) is that religious freedom is expanding in the US, and non-Christian people and faiths are fighting their way out of second class citizenship. Something the religious right hates (http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/389117866.html, http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/110324, http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/staver-dalai-lama-visit-hindu-prayer-breakfast-speaker-show-obamas-insensitivity-christianit, ). So as long as non-Christians get equal treatment in our society, we will be hearing about the "persecution of Christians". Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Why do you suppose that the recent attack took place in Paris rather than Tokyo? Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 All very good points. But I'm afraid you are bringing facts into a fact-free fight (facts have a well known liberal bias). So as long as non-Christians get equal treatment in our society, we will be hearing about the "persecution of Christians". Ya, there's no bias in that post. Shesh Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3664 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 And what happened to multiculturalism last week? We were reminded that integration into a nation's culture and laws is critically important, or as Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam Ahmed Aboutaleb,himself a Muslim, told Muslims who have a problem with Western culture to “pack their bags and f--- off ... if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave." Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Lol. Rick. Rightwingwatch isn't exactly a trusted bipartisan unbiased source of news. It's like if one of the forums conservatives started posting support for their opinions with links to Fox News. I agree in part with what you are saying, but I advise you to find better more credible sources. I think somewhere in the religious rights screaming, there may be tiny, tiny nuggets of truth in there. But I'm not an ideological warrior so both sides would like to hang me for being a political heretic. As for this thread. JoeBob wanted me to reply to him about why I deleted sections of his post. Bold type is to distinguish it from my scholarly criticism of Rick's sources of choice. Being a bit snarky, but the moderator cap is on. I sent Joe a PM explaining exactly why I deleted what I deleted. If you cannot read the PM Joe, I will re post my message here. To Calico Penn, Schiff, and Joe: I do agree that we want the Issues and Politics thread to be as open as possible. When I'm faced with somebody being offended or insulted over a post, I'm going to generally side with that person. Even in the sacred "no go" zone of Issues and Politics. I don't believe on a Scouting forum that such a "anything goes" zone should exist. I think in almost two years of being a moderator I have censored posts maybe three times including this incident. One was for swear words, one was blatantly racist, and then there was this episode which was probably the most borderline call I've had to make. Can that make flag reports easy to abuse? Yes. I trust the members of this forum to act like the adults or young adults that everybody is, and to only flag things that are truly objectionable. I apologize if my standard comes off as heavy handed, but that's the framework I'm operating under. I don't actively read I&P myself. I'm only in that sub forum if a flag report brings me there or another moderator asks me to look over a specific thread. In this situation, I am the judge and the jury. If that's an issue, the only appeal is to Terry. I hope it isn't necessary to come to that. Sentinel947 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sentinel, we're good. You've allowed the main points of discussion to be bandied about; thank you. I'm still digesting the input. (My bias has an open mind.) I apologize if I got a little feisty about deleting too much. Somebody flagged me, huh? Well... At least they didn't come busting into my office with guns blazing, like the guys in Charlie Hebdo. Do they have concealed carry permits in Paris? Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sentinel, First, thank you for doing what you're doing - I thought you handled the latest issue well and I certainly didn't disagree with your choices - when something is blatantly racist and beyond the pale of the Scout Law, it needs to be addressed - too often, on other forums, the entire post would be wiped out - I thought the surgical redacting you did maintained the integrity of the post and allowed for an interesting discussion to go forward. That said, my only other comment is that 'offensive and insulting' is a fine line to be used as a metric to make those judgment calls. If a post is insulting and offending one or two people who is/are being deliberately targeted by the post, then I full on support the need to squash it like a tick (no offense to ticks intended). On the other hand, in many discussions, especially in this particular sub-forum, someone may feel offended or insulted by a post or posts that are not directed towards them but just happens to hit their particular buttons. Does something like that truly rise to the level where the discussion has to be censored and squashed? If, for instance, in a discussion on leaders someone said that they didn't believe female leaders were effective, and a number of female leaders stated that they are offended by that, would that be enough to squash a discussion? I certainly hope not. It's a fine line - and I think we're walking it pretty well. Link to post Share on other sites
Huzzar 39 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 All very good points. But I'm afraid you are bringing facts into a fact-free fight (facts have a well known liberal bias). . Ha ha ha ... and thanks for indicating, once again, your dissociation from the real world. Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3664 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sentinel thanks for the follow-up. Do they have concealed carry permits in Paris? No. The police guarding Charlie Hebdo were not even armed. Link to post Share on other sites
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