Attracting Older MBCs to Camp

[TAHAWK 1420]

Two things.

 

1. My former troop voted to do Summer Camp on its own every other year for two main reasons. One of them was that they felt the MBC's at Council Camps were, by and large,a poor second to the adults who were MBC's at our troop summer camp. (E.g. Army Ranger SERE instructor [That is, someone who regularly instructs 20-somethings in survival] vs. teenager for Wilderness Survival. [besides, few would guess his correct age given the shape he's in.] Simply no contest.)

 

2. Your argument is based on a false dichotomy: a) young, knowledgeable, competent , enthusiastic teenagers VS old, tired, lazy, boring, out-of-touch 45+ types. Using a false dichotomy is an old, lazy, boring, out-of-touch tactic not worthy of you.

 

I have seen appreciated and acknowledged in this thread the value of those rare sorts who fit the first half of your dichotomy. The alternatives that I and many other have seen are ignored in the second half, and because they exist your dichotomy is "false."

 

I truly regret the experiences you must have had with teachers. A boring, lazy, out-of-touch teacher has no business in the game. I suspect that few of those types, being lazy, would volunteer to attend Summer Camp to teach.

 

 

[SMMatthew 70]

​Adult Association is not a 19 year old who knows everything. (Ask him!) Boys need to be exposed to adult men whom they want to emulate.

And that's why I (and the other Scoutmasters and Assistants) are there -- to provide "adult association" for the Scouts -- to be mentors, to be teachers, to be father-figures, to be Scoutmasters. But with a troop that is made up of Scouts (ages 11-17) and adult leaders who are mainly their parents or older (ages 35-70), it's nice to get a good healthy dose of 18-30 year old role-models into the mix.

 

I'm not saying camp should be totally "kid-run." Having an older camp director or a camp chaplain or commissioners or specific area-directors, is appropriate (actually encouraged), but I want my boys interacting more with SPL-types than SM-types. And the boys want it too!

 

​This attitude is either based in ignorance or good fortune. I'll assume a little of both.

I think it's more good fortune (but there may be some ignorance in there). In my time with as an adult leader, I've been to 13 Scout camp over 25 years. Our troop has one "home" camp that we go to every-other-year (in my opinion, it has an amazing program and an amazing staff...I've been going every even-numbered year since 1990 and it has it "right"), and I've been to 13 different camps in the odd-numbered "off" years in-between. Some are good, some are great, some are okay, and, sadly, a few have been awful.

 

​And you've obviously never been exposed to an old geezer who could swing an axe, roll a kayak, identify 30 kinds of moss, name every bird in your area by their song, and make their scouts hunger for more knowledge.

 

And this is where I start to understand your attitude. It sounds like all the adult scouters you know wear the bedazzled uniforms that we complain about at Roundtable. The overweight South American general types are giving the rest of us a bad reputation.

Oh, I have been exposed to such "old geezers." I know several old guys (myself included) who can keep up physically (swinging axes and rolling kayaks) and mentally (identifying mosses or birds). We can run circles around the younger guys who think they "know everything" and teach skills and give Scouts a hunger for more knowledge... but these kinds of guys really are the exception--not the norm--when it comes to older Scouters on a camp staff.

 

For the record -- I'm not against "older" Scouters on camp staffs... if the Scouter is good. The summer camp I frequent has a 50-year-old aquatics director who has that magic spark, knows his stuff and makes the learning fun and meaningful (and he could swim circles around even the toughest Scout or leader in camp)... however the rest of the aquatics staff is a bunch of 16-25 year-olds (and they blow me out of the water even more with their teaching ability and skills). If the whole waterfront was run by a bunch of 40-60 year-olds (even if they were all "great"), the camp would not be as good or have the same atmosphere.

 

And, from a management standpoint, it is much easier to get 50 good "twenty-somethings" together than find one "old guy" with the magic spark it takes. And even then, no 40-year-old can connect socially with a 16- or 17-year-old around the campfire the way a 19- or 20-year-old can.

 

I guess I just don't buy into the overall premise here that "younger" staff members or instructors are a problem.

[DuctTape 1230]

SMMatthew, I cannot speak for others, but my comments about mbc being too young is in reference to scouts, not 20-somethings. Bsa has turned a blind eye to their own advancement requirements and allow non-adults to function in the capacity as mbc in violation of bsa policy. I agree with you about camp staff and younger (adult) camp staff. However, staff and mbcs need not be the same. As has been pointed out in numerous threads, many mb's "earned" at summer camp are a joke. This is a result of trying to equate camp staff for what you describe (and I generally agree) with mb counselors. This isnt just a camp issue, it has permeated bsa councils and districts with the mb universities, etc... Some might be ok, a rare few might actually be quite goid. But by and large they are advancement mills designed and implemented to rush boys through advancement completely ignoring the real purpose and benefit of MBs.

[SMMatthew 70]

Bsa has turned a blind eye to their own advancement requirements and allow non-adults to function in the capacity as mbc in violation of bsa policy.

Well if a camp is allowing a 16-year-old to serve as a MBC and has them sign-off on 'blue cards' or blindly accepts their word on what a Scout has or hasn't done, shame on them! That should be stopped and addressed. An adult (someone over 18...even if only 19 or 20) should be serving as the qualified councilor in every case. An under-18 can serve as an instructor, facilitator, guide, bookkeeper, and/or aide for the badge or class... but an over-18 must give the final verification and sign-off on the final requirements. A 16-year-old may teach the swimming strokes, but that 18-year-old is testing and signing off that a Scout can do them. That's what the area directors or other 18-staff should be doing. If that's not happening, yes, the camp is breaking the rules.

 

As has been pointed out in numerous threads' date=' many mb's "earned" at summer camp are a joke. This is a result of trying to equate camp staff for what you describe (and I generally agree) with mb counselors. This isnt just a camp issue, it has permeated bsa councils and districts with the mb universities, etc... Some might be ok, a rare few might actually be quite goid. But by and large they are advancement mills designed and implemented to rush boys through advancement completely ignoring the real purpose and benefit of MBs.[/quote']

Again, shame on those camps (or other events) for offering poor programs! But I don't think the cure to the problem is simply to get "older" MBCs in there... nor do I think the cause of poor programs is necessarily due to "younger" staffs. I know many 16- or 17-year-olds that are amazing instructors and provide excellent merit badge programs; and I know many 45- and 55-year-old merit badge councilors that downright stink! Age doesn't cause, nor does it cure, a mismanaged and poorly-developed program, or an untrained and under-managed staff.

 

The way to "fix" a Cub Scout pack with a poor program isn't to replace all the Den Chefs with adults. Same with summer camp programs. If the program is poor, the solution isn't simply to replace the 16-year-old staff members with 30-year-olds. If nothing else, you've just made the problem (and the camp) a whole lot worse by doing so. Young staff members or instructors aren't the problem; untrained and unmanaged staff members (young or old) running poorly-developed or poorly-supported programs are the problem.

[Twocubdad 665]

Who said "replace all", Matt? You've taken this to an illogical extreme. No one has suggested the average Scout camp counselor should be 62.

 

My premise in starting this thread is that too many camps recruit the staff they can attract/afford then assign MB classes rather than finding good counselors and recruiting them. I'm asking how to turn that around. If your assumption is we should recruit older staffers just to ensure summer employment for 50-something Scout leaders, you've made a mistake. The point should be to improve the program. Yes, there are some excellent 18-y.o. MBCs staffing camp who are experts in their subject and are great instructors. But to my eye there are an equal number of 16-y.o. "merit badge instructors" on camp staffs whose expertise is limited to having earned the merit badge at the same camp from another 16 y.o. three summers earlier.

 

The relationship you are describing between Scouts and "big brother" camper staffers is a noble goal indeed. Fortunately, and through a lot of hard work, we've developed a troop program in which the older, SPL-type campers ARE our SPL and older troop members. But still, a camp full of college-age staffers doesn't guarantee that any more that a staff of 60 year olds guarantees competent merit badge counselors. Your are absolutely correct that both traits are highly dependent on the individual and independent of age. If somehow the balance between younger and older staffers does start to skew toward the geezers it is the job of the camp director to bring in younger blood. The camps I know have the converse problem and I don't see any effort to move in the other direction.

 

Saying "shame on" the camps, councils and national isn't enough. Over the years we've had countless threads bemoaning the problems of merit badge mills. Unfortunately, far too many camps and apparently those at national charged with maintaining standards have decided that as long as enough parents and troops are satisfied that quantity of merit badges is more important than the quality of instruction, that is what the market will supply.

[JoeBob 606]

As a baseline, many summer camp staffers teaching a merit badge are being assigned their area and given the book to study the day before they are teaching. If it's a good book, it works. Otherwise...

[SMMatthew 70]

My premise in starting this thread is that too many camps recruit the staff they can attract/afford then assign MB classes rather than finding good counselors and recruiting them... ...there are an equal number of 16-y.o. "merit badge instructors" on camp staffs whose expertise is limited to having earned the merit badge at the same camp from another 16 y.o. three summers earlier.

many summer camp staffers teaching a merit badge are being assigned their area and given the book to study the day before they are teaching.

And there's the problem! But it really has nothing to do with age. Those camps are putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. You can't just recruit/hire a bunch of bodies and then try to force them into the various positions or programs you have at camp (especially if they don't know the subjects or know how to teach it well). If you need a Swimming merit badge instructor, you need to find a good Swimming merit badge instructor (whether they be 16-, 25-, or 60-years-old, it doesn't matter). If you don't have a good person to teach Communications merit badge, then you shouldn't offer Communications merit badge. You don't just put anyone into the Handicraft area to teach Basketry just because you need someone to do that and you've got some kid with nothing else to do. Yes, getting quality 16- or 17-year-olds can be challenging (but so can getting qualified and quality 30- or 40-year olds).

 

Proper training, mentoring, staff engagement, program development, and camp management cures these problems.... attracting older MBCs doesn't necessarily "fix" anything and having mostly young MBCs doesn't necessarily cause a poor program either.

 

This thread shouldn't be called "Attracting Older MBCs to Camp"... it should be called "Attracting Quality MBCs to Camp."

[RememberSchiff 3666]

This thread shouldn't be called "Attracting Older MBCs to Camp"... it should be called "Attracting Quality MBCs to Camp."

 

As has been stated, qualified adult MBC's are often available but are turned away. These adult MBC's are either there with their troop for a week or are willing to volunteer for a week or two to teach scouts and correct the MB mill process. Be aware some scout camp sessions are now just 4 weeks. These adult volunteers are just not wanted; we have listed the excuses in this thread.

 

Maybe change the tread to "Educating Camp Program Directors to accept adult volunteer MB help."

 

We are considering our own troop summer camp though some adults would rather just send scouts to Provo and restrict which MB can be worked on. Our SM will not allow camp First Aid and Citizenship MB's. Previous complaints have been sent to Camp directors and SE and every summer it is same-old-same-old. My prediction is my troop will repeat same-old, same-old - hold their nose, go to same camp, see same problems, offer help, refused, complain, I remember when CIT minimum age was 15, it is now 13. And on it goes, round and round.

 

My $0.02,

[SMMatthew 70]

As has been stated, qualified adult MBC's are often available but are turned away.

Really?!? As a former program director, I am shocked to hear that a camp would turn away a qualified volunteer who wants to help.

 

Now if that volunteer isn't actually good or is unreliable or has lots of extra "baggage" or unrealistic "demands" attached to their helping then maybe, as well-intentioned as they may seem, they won't really be an asset to the program and so a polite "thanks, but no thanks" is in order... but to just say "no" to a ready, willing, able, and qualified person... that's just crazy! A Camp and/or Program Director who does that should be put out to pasture.

 

Our SM will not allow camp First Aid and Citizenship MB's. Previous complaints have been sent to Camp directors and SE and every summer it is same-old-same-old.

Just out of curiosity, what are the complaints? Are the Scouts not actually completing the requirements of the merit badge (as stated by the BSA)? Is the camp adding or deleting or changing requirements? Or does the SM just have a higher standard or preferred method that's different than what the printed requirements actually require and what the camp delivers?

 

I remember when CIT minimum age was 15' date=' it is now 13.[/quote']

Well this is a clear black-and-white violation of BSA policy, per the National Camp Accreditation Program (NACP) standards. The camp standards state in no uncertain terms that "resident camp employees must be 15 years of age or older... counselors-in-training (CIT s) and day camp staff must be 14 years of age or older." If a camp or a council is allowing 13-year-olds to work on camp staff (as "CITs," or "Den Chefs," or "volunteers," or "staff helpers," or whatever they want to call them) they are breaking the rules and should be called out on it and the practice stopped.

[RememberSchiff 3666]

Really?!? As a former program director, I am shocked to hear that a camp would turn away a qualified volunteer who wants to help.

Less you go in severe shock, donations in money and some equipment are not turned away.

 

... unrealistic "demands"

Well that depends on your perspective. A PD wanting 100% pass seems unrealistic to SM. A SM wanting his scout to know and complete 100% of the MB seems unrealistic to PD. From personal experience, PD's often need to learn how to interact and trust adult volunteers. As the BSA emphasizes conflict-avoidance (ignore the geezers?), I am not optimistic.

 

Just out of curiosity, what are the complaints? Are the Scouts not actually completing the requirements of the merit badge (as stated by the BSA)? Is the camp adding or deleting or changing requirements? Or does the SM just have a higher standard or preferred method that's different than what the printed requirements actually require and what the camp delivers?

Quality of instruction and completion of requirements. Instructors unqualified as in cannot do first aid, they just read from the merit badge book. Heed "Do no further harm". Eagle MB and so the class is usually too large.

Req 1 - too often assumed even if scout is not FC, so current knowledge is not demonstrated. Bandaging skills weak. What is a cravat?

Req 2d SM believes cannot be done at camp.

Req 3 - Patient survey not taught. CPR/AED often skipped for lack of experience or practice equipment.

Req 4 - Splinting skill weaker than bandaging. Immobilization is not understood

Req 5 - See Req 1, often assumed and skipped

Req 6 - Most time spent here as carrying and running around with stretchers is fun

Reg 7. Teach Reg 6 of course

 

Citizenship, for the parts that can be done at camp, a knowledgeable staff is not present. It is almost as bad as the Jay Leno "Ask the Man on the Street".

 

Our camp has it strengths and weaknesses, so with our troop adult help ignored with the latter, our SM directs our scouts to the strong areas.

 

There is some action on the CIT age requirements. Some 13yr olds are more equal than others it seems.

 

Another $0.02

[SMMatthew 70]

Well that depends on your perspective. A PD wanting 100% pass seems unrealistic to SM. A SM wanting his scout to know and complete 100% of the MB seems unrealistic to PD.

As a former PD, I can say the "pass/fail rate" of a MB class was never important to me, as long as those "passing" deserved it; and those "failing" deserved it. And from the camps I go to today, there doesn't seem to be an emphasis from the PDs on "100% pass" either (I get numerous "partials" at the end of a week, and I'm okay with that...in fact I appreciate it). The quality of the experience is always what comes first. But again, it may be that the camps I go to are an exception, and not the "norm."

 

So, as they say, "your mileage may vary." I'm sure there are camps that strive to crank out as many "completes" as possible (even if it means cutting corners or bending requirements to the breaking point). I can imagine that there are some camps (or councilors) out there that measure "success" based on the number of completed blue cards they sign. Those camps are missing the mark. Quality of badges given, over quantity of badges given, is what matters.

 

As for what could be considered an "unrealistic demand" from a PD's perspective would probably be things like this (and these are all the type of things I head as a PD from well-meaning volunteers):

-- "I'll need 7 or 8 'over-18' staff members to help me out an hour before each class and during the instruction." (sorry, I don't have that kind of manpower available)

-- "I'll teach Monday 9:45 to 11:00 and then well can meet again on Wednesday and Thursday from 3:00 to 3:30 and we'll finish up on Friday right after dinner." (sorry, that just doesn't fit with the camp's schedules or MB system; it's more of a disruption than an asset)

-- "I'll need 12-15 computers with internet access and a color printer and an LCD projector." (sorry, I don't have those kinds of resources available)

-- "I like small classes, I want to cap that class at 4-8 Scouts per week." (Ok, I'll make announcement and help you find 4-8 interested Scouts to work with, but I'm not going to advertise this as a "camp program" if it is only available to small percentage of the camp).

-- "I only want to offer this to Life Scout who are over 16." (Again, I'll put it out there to any interested Scouts to come find you, but I'm not going to advertise it as a "camp program" if you're adding extra requirements and it isn't open to a majority of the camp).

-- "I want to add/change/drop these requirements" (Sorry, that's against the BSA policy, I can't support that).

-- "I want you to give our troop a discounted rate for the week and guarantee our campsite for next year in exchange for my help with this badge" (sorry, I don't have the authority to do that)

-- "I'll help teach this badge but I can't really commit or give you details until my troop arrives at camp" (I can't publicize, promote or properly support a program with just 24-hour notice of if/how it's going to happen. Most troops and boys plan out their week at camp months in advance, you need to be 100% on board and organized sooner for the program to be successful).

 

Here's one thing that the camp that our troop frequents does (perhaps an idea to take back to your home camp)... They have their MB schedule and offerings, but they also let (and somewhat encourage) the adult leaders in camp advertise their MBC services too. For example, if you're a councilor for say, Radio MB or Communications MB or Fly-fishing MB, you could put an announcement out there for any interested Scouts to "come see Mr. So-and-so from Troop 123 in Campsite Whatever to set-up a schedule to work on the badge" or "come to the dining hall on Tuesday and Thursday evening at 7PM to work on the badge". Sometimes MBCs create their own classes or just work one-on-one (or in small groups) with Scouts. Scouts have the opportunities, volunteers can share their skills.... But, and here's the key to it's success, it's not directly tied to the camp's program, the camp's scheduling or MB system, it doesn't have to be every week of the summer, and it's not something that has to be locked-in-stone 6-months before camp to be published in a Leaders Guide or on a MB schedule. It's very clearly not a "camp program" it's a "that independent MBC working with Scouts program" (so the PD doesn't have to worry about quality control, or paperwork, or record keeping, or logistics, or 'blue card' issues, etc...that's on the individual MBC, although the camp staff is very supportive and often times will help out in any way possible with resources and even manpower, it's not an official "camp program").

 

 

Quality of instruction and completion of requirements. Instructors unqualified as in cannot do first aid, they just read from the merit badge book. Heed "Do no further harm". Eagle MB and so the class is usually too large.

...

Citizenship, for the parts that can be done at camp, a knowledgeable staff is not present. It is almost as bad as the Jay Leno "Ask the Man on the Street".

That is sad, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't seen my fair share of those types of situations over the years at camps and merit badge fairs. Heck, I've also seen them from "regular" MB councilors working one-on-one with Scouts. Sometimes people just cut corners or aren't the "expert" that the material of the badge requires or exploit loop-holes in the language of the requirements. It's sad, it should be addressed. It's a shame the CD, PD and SE fail to admit there is a problem and don't want to see their program and the experience for these boys improved..

 

A short "war story" for you... for many years our local camp had offered Citizenship in the Nation merit badge, however a few years ago the camp published its merit badge schedule for the coming summer and Cit. in the Nation was not listed. Some upset Scoutmasters asked at the pre-camp leader's meeting why the badge was dropped. The PD said, without hesitation, "we didn't have a councilor this year who we felt could do the badge justice and so we'd rather not offer it, which I know upsets some of you, than offer a piss-poor-program that would devalue the badge, undermine the program and upset even more of you." There was some slight grumbling from the badge-hungry Eagle-mill Scoutmasters, but after the meeting about 4 or 5 SMs (myself included) went up to the PD and thanked him for picking quality over quantity. A few leaders volunteered to help work one-on-one with any Scouts who may have really needed the badge during their week at camp, but the badge just wasn't part of the camp that summer. The next year, the camp found the "perfect" councilor (a spirited 19-year-old poli/sci major) and the badge came back and was probably one of the best MB classes I've ever seen. That's how a camp should do it. Don't put the cart before the horse. Don't promise or offer a badge unless you have a person (the right person) to offer it.