Who was Fred Burham?

[captainron14 11]

I just read a story about a man named Fred Burnham. This story claims that HE not B.P. is the "Father of Scouting". Basicly it says that Burnham taught Baden Powel everything he knew. All this came to light in papers unsealed at Yale in 2000. There is a link to this web page on this site. If you cannot find it try: www.burnhamkingofscouts.com .

Is this story real or just some novel?

Is there some Scout History buff out there who can help out?

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Even if it is real, it doesn't change the fact that BP wrote "Scouting for Boys" or quit the Army to lead Scouting. Are Steven Hawking's accomplishments any less because he had a few Physics Professors along the way who taught him the basics?

[evmori 11]

Ditto to Fat Old Guy & thanks to Major Burnham.

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

A biographical novel, I wonder what that is exactly. How is the reader to know what part is biography and what part is novel?

 

The article cited-to does not say that Burnham was the "Father of Scouting." The name of the book about him is subtitled "King of Scouts," but it is pretty clear that this refers to his reknown as a MILITARY "scout." Admittedly the article uses the term "scouting" in a somewhat confusing manner, and always uncapitalized, and it is not always clear whether it is referring to military activity or Boy Scouting.

 

Here is a quote from the article:

 

Burnham planted the seed of scouting, but he never served as the father. Baden-Powell, the single mom, spent the next forty years "sucking" Burnham's brain for more lore on scouting and the outdoors. Burnham provided a wealth of information, but mostly by mail from places like Mexico, Kenya and California where he was busy doing other things.

 

I won't comment on some of the, um, imagery in this paragraph. Suffice it to say that it looks like the "plain facts" have been embellished a bit in this article (and the book that it is about) so it is difficult to tell who exactly did what. What appears is that Burnham provided Baden-Powell with some ideas, but Baden-Powell used them to found Scouting.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

BP didn't live on an island, well. I mean he was part of the rest of the world. Maybe they should also give some credit to Seton and Beard. There were really a bunch of people around at that time that helped Scouting. It was a world wide movement and somehow Burnham got stuck in an apple crate until some scholar unearthed the real person behind the curtain.

 

What will tomorrow bring?

 

FB

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

FuzzyBear mentions Seton and Beard, and indeed either of them could be considered a "father of Scouting" alongside or even instead of B-P. Both had Scouting-like organizations (though not with that word in the title) before B-P did.

 

Here's an interesting article, and along with others that I have read, it suggests that B-P is given the pre-eminent role at least in part because Seton and Beard agreed that rather than continuing to squabble over "credit," it would be best to recognize B-P -- but of course with no actual role in the U.S. organization. The article also says a whole bunch of other things that are pretty interesting, including the controversy between Seton and James West, and an excerpt from a 1916 edition of Boys' Life in which the BSA states that Seton was "dropped" from the position of "Chief Scout" in part "because he was not in sympathy with American customs and ideals."

 

http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/seton.htm

 

[le Voyageur 72]

I'm in agreement with FOG....however, what I now purpose is the Fred Burnham sqare knot for those of us who work in High Adventure

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

It would be a closer fit to consider hacking down the Willam T. Hornaday award to replace it with the conservationist Fred Burnham, since he and Teddy Roosevelt started the Natioanl Consevation Movement. They could call it the FB award. Just maybe...

 

Since B.P. spent "forty years sucking FB's brain", to come up with all of those ideas that is the least they could do for a friend of Scouting or scouting, I think.

 

FB

[Adrianvs 10]

And here I thought that Baden-Powell cognized his outdoor skill directly..

 

Seriously, "Scouting for Boys" is filled with references to individuals and the types of individuals that BP learned various skills from. He made no claim to have invented scouting or other outdoor skills. What he did was transform those skills into a database and program for youth. BP never pretended that the skills or methods were his own. In fact, he goes through great lengths to illustrate the value that scouting has had to individuals throughout history.

 

Speaking of deification, I hope that no one believes that Frederick Burnham invented scouting, either.

[matuawarrior 10]

My impression from the site is that Fred Burham taught and mentored Lord Baden Powell on the Skills of scouting while in Africa. Nowhere does the site cite any credit to Burham for starting the Boy Scout Movement.

 

This is my understanding of the History:

 

Of course, BP took that knowledge and wrote books for British Soldiers to learn those same skills that he was taught.

 

It wasn't until He got back to Great Britain after Mafeking that he discovered young boys reading the same Scout Manuals meant for soldiers.

 

Later, BP took a diverse group of Boys to Brownsea Island. It was soon after the Scouting Movement was started.

 

Now the way I see it. Fred Burham may have taught the skills that we may still use today in our programs for basic Scout skills but in no way did he actually start the Boy Scout Movement. I credit that to Lord Baden-Powell.

 

Those of us on the forums no that BP never acknowledged that he was the Founder of the Scout Movement. He always said that he is one of many Uncles. Now I'll just have to look over all my archived materials to properly cite that passage, In due time.

 

Matua

 

[captainron14 11]

The main question I have is:

Was he for real?

Is there any other evidence/sources to back up this books claim?

Does BSA recognize him in any way?

What about the English Scouts?

If there is truth to what this book says, a "knot" or award of some kind, would be the least BSA could do. There should be some sort of recognition given.