Scoutmaster Conference - Is this the right way?

[charmoc 10]

Is it not obvious? “Eagle Scoutâ€Â

 

[JoeBob 606]

charmoc:

 

I'm going to have to decline your invitation to refrain from using the term 'Paper Eagle'. The fact that you know what 'Paper Eagle' refers to validates the existence of a problem that is within the scope of this forum.

 

Pretending that it isn't so does not make it true. Let's all work to improve our programs so that 'Paper Eagle' becomes an out of date reference.

 

Or a piece of origami.

[charmoc 10]

Well JoBob I’m sorry to hear that. Utilizing such derogatory terms towards the boys is disrespectful and hurtful. Suggest you review the Scout Oath and Law and reflect upon the values we are attempting to install in the scouts themselves.

Continual use of such terms will eventually rub off on the scouts themselves and creates an unending cycle of cynicism and negative feeling towards others who may not agree with you.

Constructive civil discussion on the program can happen without having to lower ourselves to such name calling and disrespect toward these young men who have earned the rank of Eagle Scout

[DuctTape 1230]

I think the issue some have while using the term paper eagle and the like is a reference to the belief that the scouts did not indeed earn the award, but instead other non-trustworthy adults checked off the boxes instead of providing a good program to allow the scouts to actually earn the award. Of course scouts are not to blame for the failure of the adults, but this does not mean they earned the award either. I see the term used to describe the failure of adults and unfortunately the BSA itself not only allows it, but apparently perpetuates it.

 

JoeBob is correct that the term would not be used if the BSA took care of maintaining the integrity of its own brand. When Scouters recognize the the loss of integrity of the award (look no further than the threads about summer camp merit badge mills and "universities".) this will eventually bleed into the general public. It is too bad for those scouts who earned the award that their accomplishment may be questioned because of those who didn't and were just handed the award by untrustworthy adults.

[Sentinel947 1205]

I don't like the term paper Eagle. It's a slur people use to put down other troops programs. People who for whatever reason think they decide what the standard for a "real" Eagle Scout is. I'm not going to make judgments on other Troops programs. I worry bout mine. Our response to other Troops producing "Paper Eagles" is to follow the BSA's advancement rules and have good patrol method, boy led programs. I think the people who throw down their self righteous "paper Eagle" judgments have their own issues to worry about.

[Stosh 3452]

There are some of us in this society that spent 4 years beyond college in further education.

There are some in this society that spend 2 years beyond college in further education

There are some in this society that spent 4 years in college

There are some in this society that spent 2 years in college.

There are some in this society that have a high school diploma.

There are some in this society that wrote in and got a certificate off the internet.

 

Yet they are all called Reverend.

 

Don't think for a moment that the Eagle program of the BSA produces Eagle Scouts of the same caliber every time. This dates well back into the early years of scouting when some were referred to as Parlor Scouts. The name changed, the problem didn't.

 

The boys that get it right are called Real Scouts, that has always remained the same from the beginning, but there has always been the distinction whether we like it or not. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947 1205]

Stosh: What authority gives you the power to decide who the real and fake Scouts are?

[Rick_in_CA 401]

Stosh: What authority gives you the power to decide who the real and fake Scouts are?

 

Who says he is? Stating that the phenomenon of "paper eagles" or "parlor scouts" exists is not the same as judging individual scouts or individual programs.

 

I agree that we need to be careful about judging others, which I believe was one of Stosh's points:

 

So who's to judge what is successful for everyone? If someone ever figures it out, let the rest of us know.

 

Stosh

[qwazse 4342]

... The boys that get it right are called Real Scouts' date=' ... [/quote'] Begs the question(s)... Got any Paper Real Scouts? Or in this age of internet advancement, a real paper scout? For the sake of the environment can they be paper or plastic?

[Hedgehog 334]

The key here is that the program need to reflect how people learn. Nobody can learn a knot in one sitting and remember it forever. Same with first aid skills. There needs to be a "D" added to the EDGE method for "Do it again and again." Our boys this year decided to do a knot of the month in their patrol meetings. We adults just had to get them rope - they will cut it and fuse it. The boys do First Aid as a theme for one month each year - they learn the skills, they relearn the skills, they learn them again to teach them and so on. If you have the boy leaders (in our troop it is PLs, APLs and Guides) sign off, you set expectations for them - simply put their job is to sign off only if they are convinced the younger scout know their stuff. As for Eagle, I tell my son that attaining the rank isn't as important as what HE chooses to learn and do in getting there.

[JoeBob 606]

Well JoBob I’m sorry to hear that. Utilizing such derogatory terms towards the boys is disrespectful and hurtful. Suggest you review the Scout Oath and Law and reflect upon the values we are attempting to install in the scouts themselves.

 

Gee charmoc. Judgmental much? I'm thinking definition 2:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

 

Is this not a good example of courtesy?

For the purpose of discussing this widely recognized phenomenon, what term of endearment would you prefer?

 

 

Qwaze: Plastic Eagles are probably a bit firmer than paper eagles. But, discounting the smell, I bet Plastic Eagles leave no more trace than a paper eagle after being exposed to good campfire...

[Sentinel947 1205]

 

Qwaze: Plastic Eagles are probably a bit firmer than paper eagles. But, discounting the smell, I bet Plastic Eagles leave no more trace than a paper eagle after being exposed to good campfire...

 

Aye, but real Eagles leave a trace in a campfire. Charred flesh and melted feathers.

[JoeBob 606]

So you're saying that a better trained Eagle would have known to bring BBQ sauce for the bird and made an OA dance headdress from the feathers?

 

I agree!

[Sentinel947 1205]

So you're saying that a better trained Eagle would have known to bring BBQ sauce for the bird and made an OA dance headdress from the feathers? I agree!

All I said was that if a real eagle gets thrown in a fire it burns. Poultry left in a fire too long burns, whether it's origami, plastic or organic.

[Stosh 3452]

Stosh: What authority gives you the power to decide who the real and fake Scouts are?

 

A number of comments around this so I just picked Sentinel947 because he jumped in first.

 

I don't have any authority or the power to decide who the real or fake scouts are. As with anyone's reputation, their actions speak for themselves. In the real world, the boys demonstrate with their lives how important that Eagle rank was for them. Some take it heart, some take it to the bank.

 

I don't have to judge anyone, nor do I. It's a lot easier if they just judge themselves.

 

My Godfather was a Marine in WW II, in the US Army in Korea, camped with my family every available weekend. Was one of the nicest people to ever walk the earth. I knew him my entire life and it wasn't until I read his obituary that I found out he Eagled in 1936. Do I have respect for the rank? Sure do. ....but do those who earn it have that same respect?

 

It's not just the scouts either. I really don't have much time for the SM's who keep a tally of their Eagles as if it is some kind of Guinness record they're going after. Kinda like getting all the MB's. That's nice... but is it important?

 

Everyone has to ask themselves how much judging they actually do when it comes to their scouts. I'm willing to bet they do a lot more than they give themselves credit for. FC scout should have the skills sufficient to take care of himself and others in an outdoor environment. So do they? In order to decide that one has to judge. I have a patrol of all FC scouts. Can I let them go out on their own without adult supervision as was the standard in years gone past? Again, to decide is to judge. Okay, hypothetically, I have 8 Eagle scouts in the patrol. They want to go on a non-adult outing for the weekend. So, what say ye? Refer back to the quote at the top of this post. It's rather easy to make the distinction and it has nothing to do with you or me, it hinges entirely on the boys and what they are really capable of. Are they real or fake scouts?

 

Stosh