Parent Patrol

[Snave001 11]

From day 1 the idea behind the parent patrol was that they would be registered and YPT just to be part of the patrol, then SM trained in order to help the boys. I have learned a lot in my quest to solve this parent patrol thing and think we are almost on the same page, just with bad terminology. I think assumptions were made because I called them parents. I don't know where the term Parent Patrol came from other than the adult to came back from WB called it that and it stuck. If I were to ask this question again I would call them an adult leader patrol, not a parent patrol. They were to be committed adults that we trained in every way needed to be active leaders. They weren't going to be called ASMs because they were most likely only temporary to get the troop to where the SM felt it needed to be for the boys to lead and then a few would continue on as ASM. I can see from this discussion that there are different leadership styles and all any of us can do is take from it what we can and form what works for us within proper BSA guidelines. I have talked to the SM quite a bit about the meaning of a boy-led troop I think he gets it. He just isn't totally sure how to get there from where we are and that is why other parents are offering suggestions.

[Stosh 3452]

Snave001,

 

If these parents are trained, with YPT and other training, what are they registered as? They have to hold a position. If they aren't in any function, what is their purpose? Kinda sounds a bit like a making everyone an adult version of troop Historian. A POR with nothing to do except sit around and make suggestions? The SM's gonna love that.

 

It the "Parent Patrol" was in fact specific function ASM's, (advancement, program, etc.) I would have less problem with that than a bunch of adults just hanging around with nothing to do. Idle adults can find just as much trouble to get into as idle scouts..... Believe me, I've seen it happen many times.

 

Stosh

[5yearscouter 52]

They could all be feasibly registered as Unit Scouter Reserve which only requires YPT to be considered fully trained. And Unit scouter reserve is basically parents on reserve, ready to help out when and where needed

 

Our troop by the way has an old goats patrol which is basically unit committee members and asms plus sm on any campout that are required for transportation of scouts. They cook, camp and function as a patrol but they are a very unofficial ad hoc patrol that forms as needed and disappears just as readily.

We do require that EVERY adult regardless of their registration status that goes camping or transports youth has YPT as listed on the Tour plan.

[Scouter99 265]

They were to be committed adults that we trained in every way needed to be active leaders. They weren't going to be called ASMs because they were most likely only temporary to get the troop to where the SM felt it needed to be for the boys to lead and then a few would continue on as ASM.

I can see where any number of adults might fall upon this solution from an adult-driven program perspective. It is not necessary at all.

Put the boys in patrols, tell the PLs, SPL, ASMs, and Committee how things are to be, and it will happen. The adults must imply resign themselves to and embrace that it will be bumpy, and that the bumps are the lesson. The aims of Scouting are the lessons learned, patrols are a method--the two are different. Your advocates for a Leader Patrol think the goal is to have perfect patrols ASAP because they think the patrols are the goal rather than the path.

 

I have talked to the SM quite a bit about the meaning of a boy-led troop I think he gets it.

If he hasn't done the homework, then he doesn't know. None of the position patches imbue knowledge, only study does that.

[Eagledad 2777]

Snave001,

 

If these parents are trained, with YPT and other training, what are they registered as? They have to hold a position. If they aren't in any function, what is their purpose? Kinda sounds a bit like a making everyone an adult version of troop Historian. A POR with nothing to do except sit around and make suggestions? The SM's gonna love that.

 

It the "Parent Patrol" was in fact specific function ASM's, (advancement, program, etc.) I would have less problem with that than a bunch of adults just hanging around with nothing to do. Idle adults can find just as much trouble to get into as idle scouts..... Believe me, I've seen it happen many times.

 

Stosh

 

 

I've never seen it. What you say about parents is stupid. As if adults can't act as adults and there is no training or guidience given. I imagine you will come up with all kinds of silly strawmen barriers to keep the parents away, but in the end you just don't like adults watching your program and judging the way you run the troop. Why? So what does a troop of 50 scouts do with the parents after they have driven for four hours?

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

I've never seen it.

 

You're lucky, I hope your luck holds true.

 

What you say about parents is stupid.

 

Really?

 

As if adults can't act as adults and there is no training or guidience given.

 

I see you haven't been in touch with BSA's legal team, nor their Public Relationships team, recently. I'm sure if you contact them they can drag out a few examples of adults not behaving as adults that ARE registered scouters, let alone those that hang around that aren't.

 

I imagine you will come up with all kinds of silly strawmen barriers to keep the parents away, but in the end you just don't like adults watching your program and judging the way you run the troop. Why? So what does a troop of 50 scouts do with the parents after they have driven for four hours?

 

Barry

 

Okay, you got me here. Yes, I would have a problem with 100 parents showing up after a four hour drive and trying to put them into the Parent Patrol. I don't have enough ASM's to handle that many scouts and I as SM have more important things I would need to be doing with the boys than to worry about 100 parents hanging around.

 

But until such things happen, I'm not really going to lose a lot of sleep over it. I've never experienced, nor heard of such thing ever happening anywhere. That might be just a silly straw-man argument anyway.

 

I have no idea where you have concluded I don't like adults watching my program and judging the way I run the troop. Last night at the scout meeting where I was busy teaching the boys Green Bar Bill Patrol Leader training to my boys, I had 6 adults sitting in the back of the room. That was one parent for every boy in attendance. They sat quietly in the back, didn't disturb the boy's meeting and everything was as it should be.

 

Outings? At summer camp last summer all parents were invited to come for the Friday night dinner, some did, some drove their boys home except for one boy who insisted that even though his parents made the trip he wanted to travel home with the other boys in the patrol. Did they pretty much waste their time and effort? Yep, but that's between the boy and his parents, wasn't my call.

 

Shake out outing prior to summer camp, parents were invited to "stop by and check things out". It was in a state park, so they would need to pay to come and visit. No one did. The ASM couldn't spend the whole weekend, no other parent would/could, so my wife stepped in and camped with the weekend with the boys to make the 2-deep. She also ran a nature program for the boys and offered to help them with the fishing program the state park was offering. She didn't just sit around, she didn't play Scouts, didn't participate in the am/pm flags as part of the ceremony, didn't eat with the boys, and generally stayed out of the way until the boys asked for help.

 

It might progress these kinds of discussion along if one didn't have to defend against false allegations and assumptions.

 

Stosh

 

[Eagledad 2777]

I don't have enough ASM's to handle that many scouts and I as SM have more important things I would need to be doing with the boys than to worry about 100 parents hanging around.

 

That is exactly right. It is not your problem. Adults do act as expected when they are given expectations. consistent bad adult behavior is directly a result of consistant bad unit leaders. Adults go do what adult go do and the scouts go do their thing. The SM shouldn't worry about the adults unless they do interrupt the boys part of the program, then the SM guides and teaches the adults how it works. But they will and do get it. Oh there is the occasional odd parent that doesn't follow the guidelines and they have to be treated different, but that isn't the usual normal behavior of parents.

 

By the way, I have observed a little of the litigation side. I wasn't kidding when I said holding back from parents can lead to ligation. Go ahead and speak to those lawyers you refer to and they will tell you that the vast majority of the situations are caused by unit leaders not being open to the parents. I know that sounds a little funny, but there is something about being a scout leader that makes us feel like we can help boys grow by not telling their parents everything. It's all with good intentions of course, but it can backfire when mom finds out that something happened that they feel is important. I advise all leaders in training to never hold or promise to hold ANY secrets between scouts and their parents. A lot of leaders confuse being a mentor to being a best friend and it gets them in trouble.

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

It would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program was to be kept secret from the parents....

 

If unavailable, it might be better served to get back on topic. Parent Patrols vs. Scout Leader patrols, aka registered, trained, YPT adult area 300' away from the boys.

 

"The SM is not there to guide and teach adults,..."? That's the CC and/or Parent Coordinator's job. SM is there for the boys. I have a CC that is 100% on the same page as me and she does a fantastic job of handing any and all questions asked by parents. Other than COR, CC and MC's, I have one ASM. That pretty much covers my parents that could pass the background checks. Those that couldn't are still invited to sit in and observe. The parents that come to my troop do so because they have heard we are boy-led, patrol-method and assume that right from the start, their boys are to be doing the leading, not them. That doesn't keep them from observing, but none of them want to work directly with the boys except my one ASM. That's fine with me, that's how it should be.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad 2777]

It would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program was to be kept secret from the parents....

 

When parents aren't allowed, secret is implied whether or not it is the case.

 

If unavailable' date=' it might be better served to get back on topic. Parent Patrols vs. Scout Leader patrols, aka registered, trained, YPT adult area 300' away from the boys. [/quote']

 

What is a parent patrol? The subject was an adult patrol that would participate in scout activities beside the scouts for the purpose of modeling behavior. The forum voted a unanimous No.

 

"The SM is not there to guide and teach adults' date='..."? That's the CC and/or Parent Coordinator's job. SM is there for the boys. [/quote']

 

I don’t care who does it, parents should be trained to the program just like anyone else or they get in the way.

 

Barry

 

[SSScout 1615]

Back from grass cutting...

 

Stosh: You are obviously a Scouter's Scouter and I would not hesitate to recommend a Scout to your Troop.

I'd like to answer some of your comments but the "quote" function seems not to work as it use to. Refer to #39 above.

 

Even with boy led Troops, you will still have Scouts , nascent PLers, come and ask "Can I really do that?" of the SM. It will happen. I have seen it happen. Then the SM or ASM will have to say "yes, you can" and send the Scout back to his PL or SPL or where ever. No harm, it is not "adult led" to encourage a Scout to make his own decision.

 

As to the example where I told about the early rising Scout, I realize my duty/danger , call it what you may, vis a vis YP, and I thank you for the reminder. This was in daylight, out in the open, other folks were up and about. He asked a question, I answered it and elicited some better understanding which both I and the SM were later gratified to see turn into more responsible Patrol activity. They saw how to and decided to cook earlier, wash dishes earlier, without any adult TELLING them to. You implied that I should have just shooed the Scout back to his area. Would that have really helped?

 

The SM should insist that the Troop run according to his ideal. How is that intruding on "boy led" if that is his ideal? We teach by instruction and example and encouragement. "Here's how to do it". (watch me do it this way) "Yes , you can do that". We lose the boy led ideal when the adults start saying "here, let me do that" instead of remembering that we should not do what a boy can do.

Now, if the SM and his ASMs ideal is doing a Webelos 3 Troop, and others recognize this, yeah, there will be friction.

 

[Stosh 3452]

Originally posted by jblake47 View Post

It would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program was to be kept secret from the parents....

 

 

When parents aren't allowed, secret is implied whether or not it is the case.

 

Or simply assumed and we all know what that word means. So there's nothing I said about it being secret?

So then it would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program where parents aren't allowed. I have pointed out where BSA says they are not allowed, i.e. no YPT, no training, no registration, etc. So those don't count. Yes, I have parents that won't be able to pass a background check and so I do keep some of them at bay, but never barred completely.

 

Originally posted by jblake47 View Post

 

If unavailable, it might be better served to get back on topic. Parent Patrols vs. Scout Leader patrols, aka registered, trained, YPT adult area 300' away from the boys.

 

 

 

 

 

What is a parent patrol? The subject was an adult patrol that would participate in scout activities beside the scouts for the purpose of modeling behavior. The forum voted a unanimous No.

 

I have no idea what a parent patrol is either, but it sure doesn't sound like Scout Leader "patrol" or adult area where adult scouters congregate. And if one were to refer back to the thread's title it says Parent Patrol, not Adult Patrol or Scouter Patrol. To me there's a difference between the three.

As long as we all agree why this parent patrol is a bad idea, why has discussion gone on for 4 pages?

 

Originally posted by jblake47 View Post

 

"The SM is not there to guide and teach adults,..."? That's the CC and/or Parent Coordinator's job. SM is there for the boys.

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t care who does it, parents should be trained to the program just like anyone else or they get in the way.

 

Barry

 

And that's what happens in my troop, so I have no idea why the comment.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad 2777]

Or simply assumed and we all know what that word means.

 

Correct. I said several times that when leaders try to keep parents away from the scouts that it leads to leaders being asked to leave and/or litigation.

 

So there's nothing I said about it being secret?

So then it would be helpful if you can point out where I ever said that any part of my program where parents aren't allowed. I have pointed out where BSA says they are not allowed, i.e. no YPT, no training, no registration, etc. So those don't count.

 

But those go without saying, so even have to mention them. There is a difference between making parents jump through hoops to keep them away and just trying to provide a safe environment. By the way, have the rules changes so that drivers have to get training and registration? What kind of training other than YP?

 

As long as we all agree why this parent patrol is a bad idea, why has discussion gone on for 4 pages?

 

Because I felt you turned it into a anti parent discussion.

 

I was wondering, the adults are by the fire relaxing when one of the parents insist on going to talk with the scouts. How are you going to react and why?

 

And that's what happens in my troop, so I have no idea why the comment.

 

Because it's not important how your troop functions, it's important that everyone understands why.

[Stosh 3452]

Back from grass cutting...

 

Stosh: You are obviously a Scouter's Scouter and I would not hesitate to recommend a Scout to your Troop.

I'd like to answer some of your comments but the "quote" function seems not to work as it use to. Refer to #39 above.

 

Even with boy led Troops, you will still have Scouts , nascent PLers, come and ask "Can I really do that?" of the SM. It will happen. I have seen it happen. Then the SM or ASM will have to say "yes, you can" and send the Scout back to his PL or SPL or where ever. No harm, it is not "adult led" to encourage a Scout to make his own decision.

 

As to the example where I told about the early rising Scout, I realize my duty/danger , call it what you may, vis a vis YP, and I thank you for the reminder. This was in daylight, out in the open, other folks were up and about. He asked a question, I answered it and elicited some better understanding which both I and the SM were later gratified to see turn into more responsible Patrol activity. They saw how to and decided to cook earlier, wash dishes earlier, without any adult TELLING them to. You implied that I should have just shooed the Scout back to his area. Would that have really helped?

 

The SM should insist that the Troop run according to his ideal. How is that intruding on "boy led" if that is his ideal? We teach by instruction and example and encouragement. "Here's how to do it". (watch me do it this way) "Yes , you can do that". We lose the boy led ideal when the adults start saying "here, let me do that" instead of remembering that we should not do what a boy can do.

Now, if the SM and his ASMs ideal is doing a Webelos 3 Troop, and others recognize this, yeah, there will be friction.

 

In the standard boy-led troop if someone has a question, ideally they would ask another boy. Which one? Their PL of course. Boys that do that, exemplify a boy-led program. Every boy from the first day they join the troop needs an orientation that emphasizes that process and then for the rest of his career in scouting should be reinforced. The PL's are the only ones that can ask help from the adults. (SPL if there is one), but the boys are to go to the real leader in the troop. If they are always going to the SM, that should give one the answer to who really has the authority to run the show.

 

So the little flag in the back of my mind is, why is this boy going to the SM for direction? There are a lot of SM/ASMs on this forum that spend a lot of time telling their boys, "Go ask your PL". This tells me their boys still look to the adults for direction and guidance. Why aren't the PL's available to answer their questions? Maybe because they really can't or don't have the opportunity (or real authority) to really lead.

 

I cannot ever recall having a boy ever ask me the question, "Can I really do that?" I have heard the boys ask themselves that, but never an adult.

 

Had your situation happened to me, yes, I would have immediately shooed the boy away back to his camp. He would not have had permission to come to the adult camp for any reason other than a safety issue.

 

My next step would be to have the PL up and answering my questions. If his #1 job is to take care of his boys, why does he have a lone scout wandering around especially off to the adult area?

 

Weren't the boys taught about the buddy system?

Wasn't the duty roster posted and reviewed at closing flag the night before?

Weren't the boys properly trained in their camp duties?

 

A simple yes or no will answer any and all of the above questions. Excuses don't get the job done. I don't judge their answers, but over the years, it seems to be the trend that they answer them to themselves anyway.

 

If the PL's are going to be running the show, they had better be running the show.

 

I teach by instruction, encouragement, and feedback. If they learn from the example I set they're going to be in trouble. I do a lot of cooking and camp chores for the adults, but I wouldn't say I exemplify anything worth emulating. If I wanted my PL's to sit around and drink coffee, I would encourage them to follow my example.

 

It's a fine line between hypocrisy and teaching leadership. If I teach by example, that means I lead. How do I get them to lead? A careful program of do as I say, not as I do needs to walk the fine line. I am there to help them, but not do it for them. This is what makes teaching leadership difficult. I am constantly working myself OUT of a job while at the same time turning responsibility over to the boys and working them INTO a job. The more functional they become the less functional I become. How does one lead by example then?

 

Stosh