laziness in Youth Leaders?

[SM bob 171]

I went through a similiar issue last year. We did not have any scouts who wanted to be SPL. The scouts where young and the position was beyond their abilities. So we stepped back and reevaluated the situation. The scouts were happy to be PL's so we let them be, but the PL's had to take turns running the meetings. They also had to have a PLC and plan events. The PLC would plan an activity/campout then give it to the adult leaders and ask us to make it happen. The scouts are taking more a lead in planning, but are not able to run the troop completely.

 

During campouts do the adult leaders overly help the scouts? Are the scouts allowed to have their own patrol areas? Do they cook for themselves? Pick camp and pack it up by themselves? There is a fine line between helping and helping too much. Try not to get too discuraged with the scouts remember that they are kids. Responsibility is hard to learn when their parents do everything for them.

 

As others have stated, your troop does not have a common vision. The committee and scout leaders must have a common vision and be reminded of it often. The vision must be spoken of during the court of honor's and parent meetings. You must also complete your training. I had a ASM who kept on me till I completed all of the SM training. I am very appreciative of his efforts, it opened my eyes. Also go to roundtable and talk to the other leaders in your district.

 

You mentioned that there are parents who do not help and complain. Do not try to save every scout and/or parent. They are dead weight that will drag you and the troop down. It is better to have a smaller functioning troop than a larger one that is struggling and without parent help. I will not tolerate parents that complain. I inform everyone that I am a volunteer and membership in the troop is optional. If a parent causes too much chaos they are asked to leave the troop. Scouting is supposed to be a fun experience for the scouts and the adults.

 

[Stosh 3452]

I'm not sure if I misled again. The "dork" and "cool" names are just what PL and SPL always say. In reality, the "cool" patrol is just the 12 oldest scouts OR the young ones they "approve" of. The "dork" patrol is actual a completely random group of boys that got put together because they were not wanted by the other boys. The group is mostly problem boys, though the PL I mentioned who is the only one wanting a leadership position is in this group (I want him to be a PL). He is not the sharpest tool in the shed and is lacking in terms of common sense, but he is the ONLY boy who has actually come to me with a decent plan for a trip (even though he didn't follow through). My problem was that for the overall safety and health of the group, the other leaders and I don't think certain boys should be in the same patrol due to constant fighting.... That is my dilemma.

 

Additionally, I would have a difficult time convincing other leaders to go along with what the boys want in terms of patrols. SM already approved what I did, unfortunately, and I am not sure I can convince either him or COR to allow other options...not that I won't still try. I'm just being pessimistic so I can have a back-up plan if I'm right. I just hope I'm completely wrong and get knocked off my feet with surprise.

 

No, you did not mislead. I totally understand the dynamics of what you are defining. So, I stick with what I said.

 

Dork Patrol - random scouts of left overs that no one wants. Fine, just make sure they know they are allowed all the privileges of having their own patrol and they can run it any way they want. Just keep the SM in the loop so if parents have questions he has answers for them.

 

They select their own dorky leader and run their Dork Patrol any way they find is fun and in their best interest as a group. If the Cool Patrol boys didn't want them, I'm sure the message was clear enough that now the Dork Patrol members don't want anything to do with the Cool Patrol boys either. Not a problem it'll help with the 300' separation between patrols.

 

Problem boys? Yep, those that are high energy and bored with the standard run program that if left to their creative juices will surprise you and everyone else. Patrol Leader? - Being the sharpest tool in the tool box isn't the #1 qualification for being a good leader. All he has to do is care and if he cares enough to request leadership, he's definitely ready and qualified to do the servant leadership for the group.

 

The Dork Patrol just needs a bit of focus and the fighting and bickering will naturally subside. The adult concerns about the group speak loudly of a distrust of the group in general. Well, you have no idea how these boys function together until you give them a try. Bit the bullet and set them free. Of course I didn't say abandon them, just set them free and keep an eye on them. This may be the first time in their lives they have had this opportunity and don't expect miracles right out of the box. What other leaders and you think about certain boys is not the issue. The issue is what do the boys think about themselves as a group. I find that a lot of boys that act up are basically looking for attention, well, now they have it and they have to show the adults they can really do it.

 

Follow through by the PL? If he suggests something it is not up to him to follow through! It's up to the whole group! Until he learns to share ownership in the ideas, they will only be his ideas and not the groups. Once he learns how to share ownership of these ideas, the follow through will come easily.

 

Health and safety? Are the boys armed? Can they find weapons in the woods? Probably. Keep an eye on them. But as they begin to see that this little boat they are in is dependent on them all working together to get somewhere, they'll start rowing in the same direction.

 

With the Cool Patrol, you're going to have the most problems. It's a grossly large group of boys who have no vision, no leader and no plan on doing anything about it except complain that the adults are not spoon feeding them, wiping their noses and tucking them into bed. Cool people feel privileged because they are so wonderful. Well, wonderful doesn't cut it forever. They're going to have to start doing some heavy lifting in life and the sooner they start, the better.

 

The Dorks have had to struggle more in life and they will do better in the long run than the Cool boys. The Dorks will see this as a great opportunity and the Cool boys will see it as an opportunity to whine about the adults who aren't taking care of them because they have shot themselves in the foot by having a group that no leader can handle all at the same time and they all know that, so why would any of them step up and take the PL position? Just sit around until some adult does it for them.

 

My suggestion to you as long as you're the ASM... Ask the SM if you can be the advisor for the Dork Patrol. He can then worry about the big circus and you can work with the other boys putting together a good boy-led, patrol-method patrol.

 

When I was an ASM I had a similar situation with the troop and SM. My left-over patrol boys took off and did great and the SM continued to struggle with the circus. Then when it came to the summer camp, the SM took the left-over boys out on the high adventure stuff and left me with the circus. That was my cue to leave the troop. It convinced me the SM knew it worked, he just didn't want to work it through for the whole troop. Since I left, even though he was District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver with 20+ years as SM experience with a high adventure adult led troop, they finally asked him to leave.

 

Stosh

 

Oh, by the way, I've started a new troop and I have only 7 boys, which means they too are random and I can't cherry pick to get a patrol I like. I just go with what I got!

 

Stosh

[EagleScouter2010 10]

@SM bob: right now, the COR is really the SPL in disguise. I know he'd like to see the boys step up, but I think he feels that the quality of program shouldn't suffer and he should handle things if boys can't. We just had several leaders leave the start of the year for...reasons. I am trying to get those who are still here to make a change because the ones who left were mostly all of the spoon feeders especially on trips. SM and I want to see a cooking weekend trip to an open local BSA camp ground. I guess I can combine ideas and have Eagle plan that along with TLT on the same weekend since both activities work well together.

 

As for the complaining parents, I just worry that they are ruining their son's chance in scouting and if the boy likes the program, it isn't fair to take it away because parent is upset.

 

@jblake47 Not armed, but one has bitten my arm when I wasn't looking.... his parents chewed him out later...haha puns. I can do all I can to convince SM to let them pick patrols, but ultimately it is not my decision to make, nor his for that matter I guess the only thing left for me to physically do is enjoy my comfy chair and watch, grinding my teeth and praying the boys learn quickly.

[MattR 2659]

I agree that the adults have to be on the same page. Another important thing is developing trust between the adult leaders and the scouts. You don't trust them to organize and plan a complete campout. Do they trust you to look out for them? If you're threatening them with not getting requirements signed off then it's not a good relationship. If you've been asking them for months to get something done, then they aren't really leading. They're just doing what you ask them to do, and that's too much like going to school. In other words, your relationship with them should model how their relationship should be with their patrols.

 

When the task list was generated of things to do, who made that list? Was it you saying this is what needs to be done or was it you asking questions and their saying this is what needs to be done? Subtle, but it shows who's making the decisions. Also, how explicit was the task list? If it's a vague list of things to do that the boys didn't generate then there's no surprise they didn't follow through, they probably don't have the experience to turn it into a concrete task list. Also, make sure the task list is age appropriate. If there's too much, have the adults take some of them. The goal is for the scout to succeed and it might take some experience before he can do the whole thing on his own. If the scout knows you really want him to succeed and are looking out for him, it will go a long way to developing trust.

 

There is also the tough love part. One thing that should also be understood up front is what happens if they don't follow through. Right now, if they don't do something the consequences are that you'll nag them some more. Sounds like a teacher that's not in control of a class. One way to add teeth is to use peer pressure. "If you haven't done your part to make this campout happen then you get to explain to the troop why there will be no campout." You can also say they're not following through on what they said they'd do as a leader, and then it's ok to find a new leader.

[SM bob 171]

As for the complaining parents' date=' I just worry that they are ruining their son's chance in scouting and if the boy likes the program, it isn't fair to take it away because parent is upset.[/quote']

 

If the parents don't share the vision of the troop, they are a cancer. They will destroy any unit cohesion you are trying to make. You cannot save the scout if the parent is a problem. You cannot separate the parent from the scout. When one is problem they both most go. The issue might be in the difference in program expectations that you and the parent have. They might be happier with another troop. I have emailed problem parents a list of the other troops in the districts. They have found other troops more to their liking and the scout has continued the program. Your not kicking them out of scouting, just your troop.

[Stosh 3452]

One of the things adults who lead their troops fail to understand is the power of what they don't do.

 

Okay, the troop is going on an outing. They made the plans and Little Johnny Grubmaster screwed up and didn't do the shopping. The adults panic, run around do all the shopping, collect things up and jump in the car and Little Johnny Grubmaster has once again gotten out of doing his job, suffered no consequences and learned that if he screws around enough some adult will bail him out. No one wanted Little Johnny Grubmaster to fail. Well he did. But you don't want the rest of the troop to suffer... why not? Do you think Little Johnny Grubmaster would pay attention and never do it again if everyone in the troop was on his case? Oh, my, what a blow to his self-esteem! The parents are going to have to pay out for years of therapy now and it's all the scout leader's fault.

 

Of course Little Henry Quartermaster forgot to pack the Dutch ovens... Not a problem this time, we were only going an hour out and after dropping the boys off an ASM went back and got them. Why? Little Henry Quartermaster learned that there are no consequences for screwing up the job. So the boys cooked out of their mess kits and they had to pass them around because half the boys brought paper plates and plastic tableware. It was a cooking fiasco and the boys didn't get their cobbler. So what, will Little Henry Quartermaster remember next time? I'm thinking... yes.

 

And the list goes on and on and the litany of woes from the adults wails on ad nausium. Oh woe is me, our boys don't do their job and the screw up over and over again and they are just plain lazy and maybe even rebellious!

 

Yo! Dr. Adult Frankenstein! You created this monster! You live with it! If you're going to teach these boys to be young men, then you had better stop babysitting them and start teaching them.

 

It's not tough love, it's common sense!

 

When my boys screw up, my standard answer is "Bummer" and then follow it up with looking them straight the eyes and say nothing more. When Little Johnny Grubmaster comes and asks what he's supposed to do now that he's screwed up, I say "Bummer". Stare him in the eyes and when he asks what he should do, the answer is, "I don't know, I've never not shopped for my patrol when I was supposed to." To Little Henry Quartermaster, I say, "Bummer". Stare him in the eyes and when he asks what he should do, the answer is, "I don't know, I've never let my patrol down like this, but whatever you do, be sure to let the boys know as soon as possible."

 

Using the adult bailout method, the boys learn to relax, don't worry, nothing bad will ever happen on any outing, some adult will always make it work out.

 

Using the scouting is here to help you grow method, the boys learn there is no safety net and if you don't want your buddies ticked off at you for the whole weekend, you had better do your job and do it right the first time.

 

It's not my problem when they screw up. It's only my problem when they go home, whine to mom and dad about how the SM didn't bail him out when he needed bailing and I get the phone calls asking why I'm not doing my job and I have to listen to the tirade and then explain to them their precious little boy screwed up and let his buddies down, but I'm hoping he can grow from this and avoid the same mistake in the future. Parents who don't want their boy to grow up will pull them from the program and those that do want their boy to grow up will go back to their scout and get the whole story....

 

People learn a lot more about life from their failures than from their successes.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad 665]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but my understanding of the main issue here is the older, "cooler" guys don't want to put any effort into the program. They expect the adults to spoon-feed them fun and adventure (well, maybe not adventure, that takes work too). Their parents and at least some of the adult leaders are backing them up. These older Scouts and their parents have well-defined expectations of the troop which must be either changed or met.

 

The best outcome under Stosh's program -- which will be great if it works -- would be for the dorks to come together as a patrol, develop a great program which wins over some of the cooler guys. But based on your description, I don't see all 12+ of the cool guys making the buy-in. I'm guessing these older guys and their parents were fairly-well catered to under the leadership of the former SM/COR. I'm further guessing they have grown accustomed to a certain level of service and an easy path to advancement. Those are hard habits to break.

 

One session in the much-maligned "new" Wood Badge course is on the topic of managing change. It's been awhile, but as I recall some of the points of that session were in order to effect change, you must have a clear vision of the new direction you want to take, make sure the people key to your success are on-board and expect fall out from those who aren't. The down-side of your best outcome may very well be all-out war from the older guys and their parents who don't fall in with the approach Stosh outlined. The question is who will last longer, you and the SM or the older guys and their parents? The answer to that depends on the level of support a real youth-led program has within the committee and the chartered organization.

 

Which is why I suggest the adults develop a clear understanding of the direction you wish to take the troop. You may find that most of the Scouts and families are willing to go along with the new program. But you need to find out. My impression from your posts is this isn't a tweaking of an overly adult led unit, but a sea change at the core of the unit. If that is the case, sounds like someone needs to find a new unit. Maybe it's you and the SM. Maybe it's a few of the older guys and/or their parents. But if most the Scouts, their families,the chartered organization and it's representative are happy with a big Webelos III program, who are you to make the change?

[Stosh 3452]

Yep, after 13 years of beating my head against the wall, I moved on. Best decision I ever made.

 

Groups have a difficult time making a change on purpose. Of course they change as new people come and the older ones move on, but when someone says, "That's the way we've always done it," it means that's the way it's been done since I got here last summer. Very few people know what went on in a unit 10 years ago.

 

The problem is that people have an idea of what they think a unit is supposed to be. That varies with every person. If their boy seems to be enjoying the program they will back off on their idealism. Of course they all think they own the program because their boy paid money to get benefit from it. If they help out they also feel they have more votes on an issue than the person who just drops off their kid for the meetings. The biggest hurdle that one has to understand is this thing called "The Unit" really doesn't exit. It has a personality, but one can't sit down and have a discussion over a cup of coffee with it. It appears differently to different people. One person will adamantly say it's one thing and the next person will adamantly say it's just the opposite. "Getting a handle" on it is impossible. Of course no one thinks the existing group is what it SHOULD be. To some it may mean giving it a tweak here or there and the next person wants to do a complete overhaul.

 

If you were to sit everyone associated with the unit down and have them come up with what the vision of the unit should be, it would take them enough time to sort that out that by the time they decided, the world would have moved on and they'd have to start all over again from scratch.

 

The one game in town they are not playing is: "What do the boys want out of the program?" All the adults of course know what's best for their kids and being on the winning team, playing the coolest instrument in band, getting confirmed at church, and a variety of other things like getting Eagle and such are part of their focus for their kid. So what about the other kids? They're just there so their son can have fun in a group.

 

Ever listen to the tone of most of the threads on this forum? Mostly it's what adults think is best for the kids and occasionally an older scout or just turned Eagle scout will make a comment, but for the most part it's adults.

 

Here you have the Cool Patrol and the Dork Patrol. Ever consider the off the wall idea that maybe it would be beneficial to actually sit down with the boys and LISTEN to what they have to say? After all, theoretically it's supposed to be THEIR program.

 

Stosh

[EagleScouter2010 10]

I'm just having difficulty being the "mediator" between the boys and other leaders because of the distrust. I lost a little respect for the older boys, but I wouldn't be here if I honestly thought this was hopeless. I'm not the kind of person who is willing to stand around watching things go wrong. The boys have already told me what they want to happen (boy led because the adults have them in a choke-hold) and I have been slowly pushing for it. COR really isn't that big of a problem because I know for a fact that the troop was 100% boy led 10-15 years ago when he was still around. He says he wants that too, but I don't know if he realizes how far away the troop has come from there. Anyway, I will admit I thought I was at the far extreme of "pushing the boys off a cliff" and letting them learn from all their mistakes, but I really am very concerned about the patrols they want. That being said, I know you all are right because I believe it too, that it is THEIR decision on how that happens and not mine. I was going about this in a way where I let them have some responsibility at a time, but I guess it really is in their benefit to drop whatever we've been doing to hold them back. I only got the boys to tell me they had a problem with the program a couple months back, and before that I wouldn't have even admitted there was an issue. Ignorance is bliss I guess. So, my next step is to sit down with 2 PL's and SPL (one PL doesn't want any of this, so I won't force him), the CC, COR, and SM. I need to have those 3 adults clearly hear the problem coming from the boys and I need to have the boys lay out a plan of what we should expect of them. My question then is: how far is okay at this point to push them toward their goals. Part of me says leave it to them, but the part of me that was trained in non-BSA youth leadership says I need to encourage them and push them (and yes I answered my own question there when I wrote "non-BSA," so you're all welcome for the ink I saved you).

[SM bob 171]

Don't get fixated on the 100% boy led idea. That fluctuates based on the scouts at any given time. Give them enough room to have a program. When they make mistakes let them fail. But be there to help them back up. It's like learning to ride a bike. A person has to fall a few times to get their balance. After each fall ask if they are ok and dust them off. Sooner or later they get the hang of it.

[Stosh 3452]

Boy-led, patrol-method does not mean adult-abandoned. The adults are there to assist the boys accomplish their chosen goals. When they need help, they'll ask for it. Until then, pour a cup of coffee, find a nice comfortable chair and wait for the request. Even the SPL's need to learn this lesson if they are ever going to master servant leadership.

 

SM Bob is correct. The only time an adult can assist is to pick them up and dust them off and then shove them back into the game.

 

An adult can make suggestions as long as they are fully aware that the boys can totally blow them off if they so choose.

 

Once adults learn to play their role in the game, they can actually be quite trusted and respected among the boys. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment in this day and age.

 

Stosh