When Does the Ends Justify the means?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Just wanted to know when the Ends justifies the Means,

and the Oath and Law are still followed?

[mk9750 11]

Eh?

[mk9750 11]

Just wanted to point out that was my shortest post ever.

 

Mark

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Try this, Can anyone give me a situation when the end, the product, the results, justifies the means, the way it got done, what was done to make it so

 

and while the goals were accomplished, the Scout oath and law were always followed?

[Laurie 10]

If the Scout Oath and Law are followed along the way to the end result, then no justification would be needed. I'm assuming (a dangerous thing, I know ) that you are referring to a Scout-related issue?

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Try this. I'm very hungry because I haven't eaten since breakfast. I am very justified in buying a hamburger at McDonald's.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Oh FOG, not McDonalds, for old guys like us we should be on the Sturgen reccommended diet of Milk toast and pablum...

 

Anyway, Sturgen is trying to justify the Sturgen Methods of Scouting by the amount of Eagles the troop has produced while in this section of the forum is a story of the possible demise of a real troop who likes to boast about Eagles produced but will most likely fold anyways.

 

I had a great ending worked out but Acco40 did it better than I would so this thread is history, anybody wanna change it to any other topic?

 

Oh, this hasnt been done yet

 

Hey Sturgen, if you dislike Boy Scouts so much, start your own group, the Sturgen Scouts, you dont need "troops", you can have "schools", you can enter as a guppy and reach your highest rank, Shark at whatever age you set.

 

You could even claim the title toughest bad bass in the organization.

 

Oh I have to stop, this is to easy, like shooting fish in a barrel(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7 11]

Try this, Can anyone give me a situation when the end, the product, the results, justifies the means, the way it got done, what was done to make it so

 

OGE,

 

I was with you until you tacked on, and while the goals were accomplished, the Scout oath and law were always followed?

 

It seems to me, the first part of your supposition disallows the possibility of the latter. That is to say, obviously if I have to point to the end result in order to justify the means employed, then my behavior must have been dubious and un-Scout-like.

 

Be that as it may, I do believe there is a justifiable pretence for such behavior. I believe the end justifies the means when the evil avoided or undone is greater than the evil committed. For example, lies were told to NAZI occupiers in order to prevent the torture and/or murder of innocent Jews. In my mind, a lie is justifiable if it means innocent people will be spared something much worse.

 

Given the above scenario, would I still respect a Scout as someone who embraces the oath and the law? My answer is YES! The spirit of the oath and law is ultimately about serving others and maintaining ones honor. I think telling a lie that could cost you your life in order to protect the innocent is definitely in the spirit of the Scout oath and law and the means would be justifiable.

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

Rooster,

 

You are employing situational ethics. One of my favorite classes in seminary. Just to play the devil's advocate, do you think that a lie told for any reason can be justified before God? Is not a sin a sin in God's eyes?

[Rooster7 11]

SR540Beaver,

 

You are employing situational ethics. One of my favorite classes in seminary. Just to play the devil's advocate, do you think that a lie told for any reason can be justified before God?

 

I think God looks at the heart. If I told a lie for profit, he knows it. If I told a lie to save a life, he'd know that too. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus with such a question.

 

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. Matthew 12:9-14

 

So, I believe as Jesus taught. If your heart is intent on doing good, then many things are acceptable.

 

Is not a sin a sin in God's eyes?

 

First, you are assuming that a sin was committed. Jesus did not sin when he healed a man on the Sabbath. Similarly, if I told a lie to protect an innocent man from evildoers, I believe God may choose to view such a lie as justifiable. If so, then by definition it would not be sin. Having said this, I cant say with 100 percent certainty how God would view this kind of lie.

 

I am confident of this - all men have sinned; and all sin separates us from God. So, sin is sin, in the sense that regardless of how heinous the sin every sin prevents us from having fellowship with God - if not for the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross and God's grace to stir our hearts to accept Jesus gift.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Can't help feeling that I have missed something?

What the heck is pablum? Is it like Marmite?

At times there will come along the instance when even when we know that a rule may be broken or a law may be bent but we deem that this may or might be the right thing to do. Of course this may be a judgment call which when viewed with hindsight may not stand up to scrutiny. Yes I have broken a few speed limits to get someplace where I know there is a bunch of kids waiting outside for me.

Yes I have disregarded the BSA youth protection policy when a kid has got stranded at camp. None of these were wise things to do and I strongly advise people not to get allow themselves to get caught in the situation where they feel that they have too.

In my ongoing disagreement with both the region and our council I feel that a school can not be a chartered partner of the BSA. I believe that a public school does not measure up to the values needed to be a chartered partner. Still I have been informed that I'm wrong. We are going ahead with making a local high school a chartered partner. The ends could be that we will bring a lot of youth into the program. I feel that I am not living up to the Scout Oath and Law or the Venturing Oath. by allowing and even encouraging this to happen. Still I keep telling myself that even if the school is not up to our values that it is ok because of the impact that we might have on a large number of youth.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"What the heck is pablum? Is it like Marmite?"

 

Pablum (a brand name) is a yucky, bland cereal for babies.

 

I looked up Marmite on the web and it sounds like Vegemite. (No, I don't come from a land down under, where the beer does flow and men chunder).

[Sturgen 10]

The ends justify the means when you are capable of producing far better men using a flawed process then when the designed process is notorious for pumping out boys still dependent on mom and dad, regardless of rank. I must state however that I am a strong believer in the Ubermensch principal since I read Crime and Punishment and was introduced to the idea

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Strange, I thought the idea of the "Ubermensch" came from Neitzsche and not Dostoyevsky. Now I have to re-read Neitzsche, Dostoyevsky and G.B. Shaw.

[Sturgen 10]

"I thought the idea of the "Ubermensch" came from Neitzsche and not Dostoyevsky."

 

You are correct, as far as I know. However Fyodor Dostoevsky first introduced me to the idea in Crime and Punishment when I read it 3 or 4 years ago, before I ever read any of Friedrich Nietzsches works. As you ought to note, I never claimed that Dostoevsky was the innovator of the idea.(This message has been edited by Sturgen)