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Stosh

OA and the aboriginal cultures

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32 minutes ago, David CO said:

I thought he was joking, so I responded with a joke. I thought everyone would recognize it as a joke. My mistake. Since you have taken offense at my joke, I invite a moderator to delete the post.

I found it hard to believe that anyone would seriously consider the OA stories and activities to be some sort of performance art that should be compared to classic works of literature.

Actually, the OA Legend draws heavily from the works of Cooper as well as fictional writers, including Longfellow.

Regardless, lampooning, as you demonstrated above,  is the act of using sarcasm to mock someone. The OA has never sought to mock anyone. The use of Native American culture was meant as an honor, in fact one of the founders was honored by at least one tribe for his efforts.

While individual members, chapters and lodge are not perfect, the OA strives to be respectful in it use of Native American imagery and lore and encourages working with local tribes.

We tend to hear a great deal about those that are offended by the OA, but those Native Americans that routinely come out and support, teach and work with the OA are seldom given the same voice.

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3 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

 

We tend to hear a great deal about those that are offended by the OA, but those Native Americans that routinely come out and support, teach and work with the OA are seldom given the same voice.

Have you reached out to your local tribe(s) to invite NAs to work with the OA?  From what I can see, the Seminoles did work with the local OA chapter.... but which others?   I wonder how widespread the support is from various tribes and if they truly see this as honoring them.

If the support isn’t widespread from NA tribes I wonder if it is worth the effort to fix that or to simply create new traditions as some have suggested.  If it is widespread then perhaps it is simply correcting the areas that are not working with NAs.

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David ,  sorry if I overreacted,  it was past midnight east coast time and it had been a difficult day.  

I just didn't see the joke.  But no harm, no foul.  No need to delete the post.

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I've met at least one young drum circle (the men of which got their start in O/A) who were granted membership in the Lenapi Nation for their attention to detail and respect for the tribe's culture. 

I don't go following drum circles, so pardon me if I generalize from a small sample, but seems to me that being recognized by a living tribe for your work trumps getting some stickers from an anime fan-club for your cos-play.

If that's the kind of recognition in store for even 1% of active arrowmen, we would be fools to deny them that.

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8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Have you reached out to your local tribe(s) to invite NAs to work with the OA?  From what I can see, the Seminoles did work with the local OA chapter.... but which others?   I wonder how widespread the support is from various tribes and if they truly see this as honoring them.

If the support isn’t widespread from NA tribes I wonder if it is worth the effort to fix that or to simply create new traditions as some have suggested.  If it is widespread then perhaps it is simply correcting the areas that are not working with NAs.

I didn't need to, it had already been done before I came to my current lodge.

As for other lodges and what they are doing it is difficult to say.

Lodges can be involved with individuals from the tribe, representative, governing bodies or Native American associations or nobody at all. I do not know how many Lodges have the official approval of any particular tribe.

 

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On 1/21/2018 at 11:14 AM, David CO said:

Aren't we?

When we make up fake characters and legends, aren't we lampooning the culture? 

Really?

I think it's pretty clear when we are lampooning something and when we are not. Black face? Clearly lampooning. OA regalia? Given that native nations are not in agreement that this is bad or good, I think you have your answer.

Is Halloween, or any costume party for that matter, could fall under "lampooning". Are we to end that tradition too? Santa Claus (the fat American one) is essentially a lampoon of the European-based St. Niklaus. Stop that too shall we? 

Sometimes we, as humans, are just too sensitive. 

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If it is done correctly, I don't see it as an issue. Many regalia pieces are based on historic pieces and are meticulously researched. Some are even more "authentic" and historically correct (in not only appearance but construction) than what many actual tribal members will wear to a typical Pow Wow. If done correctly and respectfully, complaints are pretty rare around my neck of the woods. That entails actually learning the culture and learning what is appropriate and what is not.  

That said, you do see the "Chief Wannabe" types as well, which unfortunately give the Order a bad name.

 

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4 hours ago, MikeS said:

If it is done correctly, I don't see it as an issue. Many regalia pieces are based on historic pieces and are meticulously researched. Some are even more "authentic" and historically correct (in not only appearance but construction) than what many actual tribal members will wear to a typical Pow Wow. If done correctly and respectfully, complaints are pretty rare around my neck of the woods. That entails actually learning the culture and learning what is appropriate and what is not.  

That said, you do see the "Chief Wannabe" types as well, which unfortunately give the Order a bad name.

 

You seem to be focusing more on the authenticity of the regalia, while I am largely concerned with the fictional characters and stories and how close they come to lampooning Native American culture. I think an OA skit might be more of an "honor" if it portrayed real people and events in a respectful manner.

Our historical society does an annual event which has actors portraying real people from our community telling their stories (from the grave). Some of these historical people have been Native American. The historical society has often been complimented on both its accuracy and the respect it shows to all the characters.

Edited by David CO
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The Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody, WY has displays of the various Indian traditions.  No two are alike, but NONE of them look like Hiawatha a fictional character from Longfellow's poem.  The real Winnie the Pooh does not look anything like the real Winnie.

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https://www.google.com/search?q=ojibwe+pictures&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=6QC3uvvHpjwCQM%3A%2CtJ9YyDuS0AEGxM%2C_&usg=__gJZvB61xXTHHb_nIbBZYDAO3p7U%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnxaDa3PDYAhVr34MKHd1-DCYQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=6QC3uvvHpjwCQM:

How many of your OA boys look like the real Ojibwe (Chippewa) Hiawatha's native tribe?  Unfortunately they tend to look like what we think they should look like and don't do the real research.

Edited by Stosh

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You mean actual events like a Scout helping a lost stranger in the London fog? 

I don't think the OA characters have to be based on real people or actual legends. Even if they borrow from or paraphrase real people or legends or stories, that should be fine as long as the proper respect is used.

If we held movie and TV writers to the standard of portraying real people and events properly (and without embellishment) we'd all be watching PBS documentaries from the 1970s still.

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1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

If we held movie and TV writers to the standard of portraying real people and events properly (and without embellishment) we'd all be watching PBS documentaries from the 1970s still.

Are movie and TV writers trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind...

If we want to tell madeup stories of Scouts I don’t see an issue.  If a lodge works with or gets permission from a tribe on their stories, regalia, etc.   no issues with me.  I think we run into violating  the scout law when making up stories involving another culture that then offend the individuals in that culture regardless of our intent.   There are plenty of options on how to avoid this situation.

 

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How about using the kudu horn. Does the wood badge crowd have the African culture’s permission they stole that from? Doubt it. 

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16 hours ago, Back Pack said:

How about using the kudu horn. Does the wood badge crowd have the African culture’s permission they stole that from? Doubt it. 

 

15 hours ago, Stosh said:

or the WB beads?

 

Exactly!! Where is the indignation about the appropriation of these items. Why isn't BSA voluntarily giving up those things? I'd love to see the foks siding with the no-regalia for OA crowd speak on this issue a loudly as they have on the OA issue. If only  to be consistent.

Edited by Col. Flagg

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