Scout "Too Young" to be an Eagle?

[King Ding Dong 540]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

We have "registered" 16-17 year old in the troop who has shown up a couple times announcing his eagle project. Last week he had his signup sheet out and asked for help, wasn't even in uniform. My son, just 11, is begging me to let him help. Ug, I reluctantly let him signup up. I wanted to tell him, "What has this boy done for the troop since you joined ? Has he been on a campout

or troop meeting and given you leadership ? He wants something from you and has no intention of ever contributing to your scouting experience. Why should you help him ?"

 

I didn't and guess I did the right thing. It still bugs me.

 

Which of these two boys would make the better Eagle candidate ?

[skeptic 992]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

[Venividi 35]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

Brewmeister: the solution was easier than expected. We stopped re-registering scouts that we hadn't seen for an extended period of time. Thought we would catch a lot of flack from families, but as a group they were supportive of no longer re-registering non-participating scouts. Discussions at committee meetings revealed that one of the reasons that parents supported their son joining a boy scout troop was that they wanted and expected that their son would be interacting with older scouts.

[Basementdweller 608]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

Our troop definition of active is 75% of meetings and outings and 85% for youth leadership.

 

We do not automatically recharter everyone.....You must be active to recharter.

[King Ding Dong 540]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

I like those numbers BD. How does work when push come to shove. If Mom shoves you a check every year, will National allow you to drop them ?

 

It bugs the hell out of me that a sports team can require attendance, but the BSA does not.

[King Ding Dong 540]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

Are you saying there is an Eagle at 11?

[Brewmeister 132]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

Well that is an excellent point KDD and one that I don't have an answer to. How is it that a sports team can require you to be there for X number of practices or you don't play? Because people put up with it. There is a demand for sports.

 

If a troop or pack were to require attendance, what would happen?

[perdidochas 658]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

Well, it takes 17 months, minimum to get Eagle.

1 month for T-2-1 (30 day physical fitness)

4 months for Star

6 months for Life

6 months for Eagle.

 

You can join the Boy Scouts at age 10, if you have finished the 4th grade by at least 6 months. I finished 4th grade at age 9 (October birthday). June 1st is the start of 5th grade. In an active Webelos Den, I could have gotten AOL on December 1. (when I was 10 yrs/2 months old). In 17 months, I would have been 11 yrs, 7 months old. Theoretically possible, but not likely at all (especially considering I never got AOL)

 

That said, the official record seems to be age 12 yrs 2 months and 9 days.

 

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20110902/PC1602/309029925

[Twocubdad 665]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

No doubt. If mommy and daddy are committed to putting forth the effort to find compliant, agreeable, or incompetent units willing to put up with this it is certainly possible. Blow through Webelos and earn Arrow of Light at 10.5. Join a Boy Scouts and convince a newbie SM that AoL is as good as Tenderfoot, a month each for Second and First Class (just like in Webelos) then you're home free for Eagle in exactly 16 months. Of course mommy and daddy will have to sign up to counsel multiple merit badges and constantly be on the lookout for new sucker troops when the current one wises up, but that is no problem for the truly committed.

 

And all of this is exactly as the national advancement team wants it. Read the Guide to Advancement -- high speed, low drag is the way to go. How can we profit off our beloved Eagle Scout brand if a bunch of curmudgeonly Scoutmasters won't sell it to ready customers such as these? Allow band and the chess club count as participation in your troop. Mandate that Scouts may work on any merit badge any time with any counselor and prohibit SMs from doing anything about it. Set the minimum amount of time required to complete an Eagle project at zero. Define "provide leadership" as working with as few as one other person, and that person may be either mommy or daddy.

 

Actually, my only surprise is this kid hasn't been on the cover of Boys' Life.

 

Forget the gay rights activists, lawyers, insurance companies and Trail Life. BSA is doing this to itself.

[skeptic 992]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

Probably will hear about it soon. It just occurred recently and found out it was approved just last week. The goal was specific; to be the youngest ever. Soooo.

[Kudu 186]

If we do that correctly' date=' the scouts follow their own vision, not ours. [/quote']

 

That really is the salient point here.

 

I will disagree on the biology comment, however. It is true that biology (physical development) may be an obstacle to effective leadership (because physical size has an advantage), it can be overcome by how the boy handles himself with his peers. That really does come back to the boy, and to training.

Yeah, Brewmeister, I thought I agreed with you, but now I can't tell :-)

[Kudu 186]

The BSA program is designed to get a Cub Scout survivor to Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

If an indoor boy loves paperwork and office manager theory, why not Eagle at twelve?

 

As for proven "leadership ability," how many Eagle Scouts have even one (1) night of what Baden-Powell considered Boy Scout camping? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

 

Won't be tapped to be a NYLT Staffer? How many NYLT Course Directors experienced as a Boy Scout (or can even define) what Green Bar Bill called a "Real" Patrol? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?

Brewmeister,

 

SPOILER ALERT!

 

The final sentence of my "Leadership Training Weekend" guide to "Master and Commander:"

 

"Certainly, a tale in which a one-armed 13-year-old boy competently assumes command of a man-of-war ship facing overwhelming odds in a battle at sea would be a poor choice for Scoutmasters who forbid 13-year-old Eagles!"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm

[Basementdweller 608]

"disappear for several years then barnstorm the troop asking for help on their Eagle project from kids who've never even seen them, and squeeze Eagle in just in time to age out and be useless to the troop as an Eagle to begin with."

 

How do adults reconcile this with expectations for scouts to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful? Some mental gymnastics need to be done to explain away why such a scout is not loyal to his troop or his patrol? Why his troop and patrol cannot trust him with any task? How has he helped his troop, patrol, fellow scout? We once had a scout that absent for anything that required work. When SM didn't sign off on scout spirit requirement, his Mom called and attempted to argue that her son showed scout spirit in his theater group (i.e., every day life), so it shouldn't matter if he didn't show scout spirit at troop functions.

 

If two of our aims are character and citizenship, what character trait is shown by a scout that only participates in the troop for the sole purpose of what the troop can do for him (receive an award to put on a resume?)? How do you reconcile that with being a citizen of the troop? Scout spirit has to mean more than "he never has been arrested".

 

We used to keep scouts on roster in the hopes that they would come back. We wanted to be welcoming. We finally woke up and realized that a scout coming back after several years absence only to work on Eagle requirements, was damaging our program. It was a lousy example to the scouts that did participate and demonstrated to the scouts that the adults may talk the talk of character and scout oath and law, but didn't walk the walk when they gave awards to scouts that did not participate, and were therefore not trustworthy, loyal, nor helpful to the other scouts.

 

There is a subtle, silent message to a 15+ YO that does participate - that he is foolish for puting in effort towards an award that adults approve for individuals that don't participate. Peer pressure will result in more scouts disappearing after 15 - (Why are you hanging out with all those little kids?) It becomes the culture. The culture wont change by itself. If you want to change that culture, the adults will need to lead that change.

The immediate effect was the boys either got more active or dropped out....... We lost one boy out of 18 at the time......Our attendance has been excellent at meetings and activities since the policy was enacted at the time the first GTA was introduced .....

 

For advancement it has yet to be tested....Honestly I don't expect it ever will.

 

I understand sports and band interfere......We do quarterly cycles like sports......If a lad wants a board of review he needs to meet the attendance policy the three months prior. So a boy can disappear for marching band and return in time a BOR for the winter court of honor.

[Basementdweller 608]

As has recently occurred in our council, a parent has worked the system through legal technicalities, threats, and troop and district changing until he got what he wanted, his eleven year old passed through. And, of course, even though he passed, the whole thing has simply left an acid pall over the proceedings. The boy has a lot of potential, and hopefully may yet prove himself; but I have a feeling even he realizes he really should not have passed; but he is too young to stand up to the parental intrigue. Bad example for the boy, and even a worse example for those that know him. It started in cubs where he somehow "earned" every loop and pin available, even though none of the other boys even knew the opportunity was being offered for many of them, and they were last minute by the, you guessed it, parental "leader". Moved into a troop at the absolute minimum age, then transferred soon afterwards when the leadership said he had not satisfactorily met certain requirements and that the "parent was not authorized to sign off stuff like in cubs". Buffaloed the new unit for a few months, then it again hit the fan, eventually resulting in parental legal threats and moving to another unit in a neighboring district. Again worked the system and got a board. Current unit had developed huge concerns, but nobody was willing to stand up to the realities of what went on and force a final challenge at National. Do not make waves is the norm once these things reach a certain stage.

 

The really sad thing is that the boy himself likely would have made it on his own and actually felt good about it; but you can tell he is embarrassed when confronted by those that tried to challenge him early on to "earn" rather than just get blanks signed and then forget, and to prove himself with his peers. Now he has little or no respect even from them. Still, he could grow into it, assuming he stays around long enough with his current peer level issues and the bad feelings generated on the adult level, he will have learned a really good life lesson. Of course, he will have to be able to confront the poor parental example to succeed. One can hope.

I gotta wonder what damage this does to the young men.

 

Tough to peak when your barely 12...

 

So I wonder when he will quit????

[DuctTape 1230]

There is a difference between being an Eagle Scout and wearing a patch. There are Eagle Scouts who never got the patch, and patch wearers who aren't Eagle Scouts.