National Outdoor Achievement Badges and Award

[duckfoot 80]

If even half of the effort to get around requirments and rules was redirected back into the program, it wouldn't be necessary to get around the requirements and rules.

[cbowe 20]

Common sense tells you that it is all under the auspices of BSA. It is a scouting award after all. Under the auspices includes troop run activities, patrol activities, OA activities, Jamborees, High adventure etc.... it does not include going camping with the family. As SM I know who attends what outings. I know who is doing what activities at said outings. For activities I did not attend (Ex Jambo) I have the scout log what they did. I keep it all in a spreadsheet (TM is not very useful for tracking riding and aquatics time.) I also know what Mbs and awards (such as mile swim) they have earned. I also do the surprise, guess what you have earned method. Though I do let the scouts know these awards are available.

 

If a scout is working on a MB one can argue that it is under the auspices of BSA since a scout is expected to observe BSA policy (like safe swim, buddy system, trip plans etc as these are part of the MBs.)

 

So common sense or go all lawyerly .... isn't the intent of this badge to get scouts off the couch and outdoors doing things?

 

 

Chris

[Basementdweller 608]

Well there are three members of this forum that don't see it that way....

[Scouter99 265]

So here is the response from national...Bill Evans was the fellows name.....A very prompt response, more than a little surprised and pleased.

 

"Bob, some awards intentionally do say under the auspices of the BSA while some do not. Hiking, Aquatics, and Riding say under the auspices. For those, that under the auspices also applies to the devices. "

 

HAHAHAHA!!!! I emailed the Advancement Team, too, and they forwarded it to Evans (they said NOA wasn't Adv Team's deal) and he told me the same thing, but I didn't figure there was any way to post his reply without being accused of putting words in his mouth.

 

I asked two questions, unfortunately he only answered the second question:

"1. What exactly does "under the auspices of the BSA" mean?

Some people are arguing that it means anything a scout does in the 5 areas, say, if he bikes 5 miles to school, then there's 5 miles toward riding. Some are arguing that it means anything he does in the 5 areas as long as he is consciously doing it to earn the award, say, he bikes 5 miles because he wants 5 miles toward the award, then his intent alone makes it "under the auspices." Others argue that it means only activity in the 5 areas done within the patrol, troop, district, council, OA, or national program.

Some have pointed to your answer in this Scouting Magazine blog and say that "under the auspices" and "at designated scouting activities" are one-in-the-same and interchangeable across badges/awards, but others say that answer only applies to the Camping MB.

 

2. While the camping, hiking, riding, and aquatics badges all contain the caveat "under the auspices" their gold and silver devices do not, they simply say a gold/silver device "may be earned for each additional X nights/miles/hours of camping/riding/aquatics."

This begs the question as to whether these additional nights/miles/hours must also be within Scouting activities, or from any individual pursuit. The proponents of the second position that metrics for devices may be outside of Scouting say that it is so because that is just how it is written, and we may not add to the requirement."

 

His answer:

"[scouter99], for those awards that say under the auspices, that also applies to their devices."

 

Also surprised at the quick reply given it's national and I don't suppose they have time to answer every silly email that comes through, especially during Jambo week.

[Basementdweller 608]

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

[Scouter99 265]

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

Yes, that shows that KDD's lawyering about the wording for devices is wrong, but it doesn't answer the question "what does 'under the auspices' mean?" I don't need an answer, because I'm not a fudger, but plenty of people do.

[Basementdweller 608]

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

Old KDD will just ignore what was the email from national said,

[King Ding Dong 540]

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

I do not have the authority to ignore National. Thanks guys for helping clear this part of this up. Under the auspices at this point seems to be at the SM discretion, until we can find further clarification.

 

Before you get your panties in a bunch BD, I am not SM, do not feel ready for SM and have to many other things to deal at the moment to entertain that.

 

You all may feel it is a silly question, but as evidenced by the replies to this thread, many people are confused by the wording and intent from national. Especially those that are new.

[King Ding Dong 540]

read his reply to me....It answers the question....

 

The rules apply to the devices as well.

I not spoken to the SM about this particular award, but have asked him what he defines a Patrol Activity as. He says it is two or more scouts getting together for the purposes of scouting. Is he correct? I don't know. Is there more to it ? Does not seem like a silly question to me.

 

Can two Scouts get together and take a bike ride on a trail for 15 miles and count those miles ? Does the entire patrol need to attend ? One patrol member doesn't even know how to ride a bike (I know amazing). At least two if not three cannot pass the swim test.

 

A separate issue I am not entirely clear on is what kind of adult leadership is required. I see conflicting opinions. Two deep for day activities ( my CC thinks so) ? One, None ? I know I have read a patrol can take a hike without adults tagging along. What about bikes ? What about lap swimming at a pool with lifeguards ?

 

Are patrol activities limited to the lowest common denominator skill set of the patrol ?

[Basementdweller 608]

I don't agree that a Patrol activity is a boy and his pal. If that were the case my troop has patrol activities 7 days a week both patrols. Even if it were 3 boys......

 

Rare is the event where the entire patrol attends. In my book to be a Patrol event it needs to be about half in attendance. So average patrol of 8....that means about 4 guys. So what ever the patrol size is half the members need to be there........

 

So your aquatics dilemma.....Find a pool that gives swimming lessons....Take the patrol for for swimming lessons..... Boys that can't ride a bike, suggest a patrol bike rodeo....You have an the scouting umbrella activity.

 

 

So Patrol hike.............Two deep leadership????? So you load the boys up in the family truckester and head to the trail head.....No one on one.......Boys jump out of the truckster begin hiking.....Good ASM sits down in his camp chair with his cup of coffee and a book or smart phone and netflix app........In a couple of hours the scouts return........

[King Ding Dong 540]

I don't agree that a Patrol activity is a boy and his pal. If that were the case my troop has patrol activities 7 days a week both patrols. Even if it were 3 boys......

 

Rare is the event where the entire patrol attends. In my book to be a Patrol event it needs to be about half in attendance. So average patrol of 8....that means about 4 guys. So what ever the patrol size is half the members need to be there........

 

So your aquatics dilemma.....Find a pool that gives swimming lessons....Take the patrol for for swimming lessons..... Boys that can't ride a bike, suggest a patrol bike rodeo....You have an the scouting umbrella activity.

 

 

So Patrol hike.............Two deep leadership????? So you load the boys up in the family truckester and head to the trail head.....No one on one.......Boys jump out of the truckster begin hiking.....Good ASM sits down in his camp chair with his cup of coffee and a book or smart phone and netflix app........In a couple of hours the scouts return........

So what does the BSA say a patrol activity is ?

 

What the bleep is a bike rodeo ? Rodeo is a bad word in my book. Like NASCAR, Monster Truck and Honey Boo Boo.

 

So if less than 50% of a patrol show up nothing counts ?

[Basementdweller 608]

I don't agree that a Patrol activity is a boy and his pal. If that were the case my troop has patrol activities 7 days a week both patrols. Even if it were 3 boys......

 

Rare is the event where the entire patrol attends. In my book to be a Patrol event it needs to be about half in attendance. So average patrol of 8....that means about 4 guys. So what ever the patrol size is half the members need to be there........

 

So your aquatics dilemma.....Find a pool that gives swimming lessons....Take the patrol for for swimming lessons..... Boys that can't ride a bike, suggest a patrol bike rodeo....You have an the scouting umbrella activity.

 

 

So Patrol hike.............Two deep leadership????? So you load the boys up in the family truckester and head to the trail head.....No one on one.......Boys jump out of the truckster begin hiking.....Good ASM sits down in his camp chair with his cup of coffee and a book or smart phone and netflix app........In a couple of hours the scouts return........

Your splitting hairs again.....

 

The BSA has no numbers that say you have to have x number or percent of a patrol for an activity......But it does say 'Patrol size depends upon a troop's enrollment and the needs of its members, though an ideal patrol size is eight Scouts. Patrols with fewer than eight Scouts should try to recruit new members to get their patrol size up to the ideal number'"

 

Activity is approved by the SM and does not interfere with the troop schedule.

 

 

 

Two boys does not make an outing......if you can't get more invite the other patrol too.......or invite the troop to the swimming lessons. You can do an adhoc patrol, when both patrols have poor attendance. But then your back to troop method.

 

I again point to my sons patrol who are all very close friends and they are together most days during the summer.....Honestly with son at the jambo I miss the energy in the house of the boys coming and going.....So at what point do I begin and end counting scout events.......

 

An average summer day....they meet at someones house and ride their bikes to the pool which is roughly 3 miles from our community......they swim 4 hours and return.......From where you are going I could count that as a patrol bike ride and count the hours for the aquatics segment.....I know my son and his best friend do this most days and generally half or more of the patrol show up eventually. plus their SM approves of it because it is better for them instead of sitting in front of the game console.....

 

Are you sure you were involved in cubs......I am pretty sure either the wolf or bear year you ride bikes and it mentions bike rodeos........safety inspections of the bike followed by a Ride thru a course of cones for time or precision, we did a closest stop to the cone without knocking the egg off......they all failed of course.......we did shortest stop, also....we taught more than a couple to ride during the events.

 

Lawyer away......

[King Ding Dong 540]

I don't agree that a Patrol activity is a boy and his pal. If that were the case my troop has patrol activities 7 days a week both patrols. Even if it were 3 boys......

 

Rare is the event where the entire patrol attends. In my book to be a Patrol event it needs to be about half in attendance. So average patrol of 8....that means about 4 guys. So what ever the patrol size is half the members need to be there........

 

So your aquatics dilemma.....Find a pool that gives swimming lessons....Take the patrol for for swimming lessons..... Boys that can't ride a bike, suggest a patrol bike rodeo....You have an the scouting umbrella activity.

 

 

So Patrol hike.............Two deep leadership????? So you load the boys up in the family truckester and head to the trail head.....No one on one.......Boys jump out of the truckster begin hiking.....Good ASM sits down in his camp chair with his cup of coffee and a book or smart phone and netflix app........In a couple of hours the scouts return........

You keep throwing up straw men. Kids riding a bike to a pool and goofing off for a few hours.

 

I am talking about serious activities. Swimming laps, or a distance ride on a trail.

 

You live in a different world than I do. We are to geographically dispersed and 10 year olds do not ride bikes unsupervised on roads. In fact we don't ride bikes on roads period at this age. The drivers around here do not respect cyclists. That may make it impossible to get the cycling merit badge for some time.

[Scouter99 265]

A separate issue I am not entirely clear on is what kind of adult leadership is required. I see conflicting opinions. Two deep for day activities ( my CC thinks so) ? One, None ?

So read the Guide to Safe Scouting:

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#e

[blw2 433]

Basement & KDD, you are both bringing up some interesting and I think valid points......

 

I have to say Basement, your interpretation is starting to read, to me anyway, as a bit socialistic.... like the book The Rainbow Fish. It's not "fair" for one or two or three boys to get off their backside and earn something...... they have to include everyone. May not be your intention, but that's how it reads.

 

I might suggest that both of you might benefit by taking 3 or 4 huge steps back away from the issue and ask, "what's the point here..... for the boys"?

 

Basement I think is suggesting something good and noble.... some great lessons - inclusion, leadership, organization....

KDD is in my opinion also suggesting something very valuable and good too - leadership by example, independence, self reliance, not letting others slow you down or keep you back......

and both are encouraging goal setting, accomplishment, etc....

 

Just looking at this as a Cub leader, not knee deep in troop goings on...... & applying some common sense.

I think that auspices intends to mean what it means. Seems like a good approach would be for a boy to invite the patrol, troop, or whatever..... organize, etc..... If there's not enough interest, nobody shows up, whatever, go it alone. Don't hold the guy back?

 

Oh, and while you are stepping back and asking yourself questions, ask how would your position affect a Lone Scout?