Is today's scouting too prissy?

[fred johnson 936]

NJCubScouter - Point well made. I mainly used labels for the John Wayne and Peter Fonda as people can picture the Cowboy and the Easy Rider. I just wish I could find more of them in scouting. That's all. It's one reason my sons are in scouting. To heck with all the MBA driven paperwork. My sons get that enough in school. I want them to get dirt, scratches and a little bit of muscle built up. Oh, and to make friends along the way.

 

Eagledad - You're dead on. I used to disappear for most of the day starting when I was 10 or 11 years old. Bike across town to the YMCA. Bike five miles to my friend's house. I'd generally let me mom know, but it was more for meal planning than for permission. And to be courteous.

[Basementdweller 608]

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

Isn't that exactly what they did to him????

 

Your going down the wall son....Cause nobody walks down the stairs.

[Basementdweller 608]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

I don't think much of JTE or it's predecessors....It is a guide for the clueless. I would never burden them with that document......Heck my DE fills mine out for me so it is all good.

 

I was poking fun at a unit who is jte gold and I feel is a parlor unit and will give us scouts that can't start fires, tie knots or know how to way find.

[King Ding Dong 540]

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

No it isn't the same. The tower is a very controlled environment and not very tall. He climbed up, now he has to get down. A cliff like the water is real and much scarier.

 

I have had to deal with to many terrified kids who have had instructors dunk them or let them sink and swallow water when they were not ready.

[Stosh 3452]

Personally I don't think its about outdoors or adventure, my scouts do and did a lot more high adventure stuff than I did as a scout. But I definitely think that scouting is more prissy. I think it's there is less freedom for boys to express themselves as boys. Adults are A LOT more guarded today about what boys can say, do or even meet. We put limits on knives and other woods tools. It was no big deal for my patrol to go on a five mile with a map and compass, but adults today would struggle to let a patrol hike through the safe parts of our town without some kind of oversite. How many boys can ride their bike accross town without getting permission? Our culture has closed in on our youths freedom of expression and freedom to move about. The culture is more prissy, and we don't have very many adults who remember how it used to be. Barry

If you were to read carefully your comment, you use the words "personally, I don't think...", "I definitely think..", "I think it's there..." Well, how do you feel about all that? Why can't you get in touch with your feelings on the subject. And thus there's the rub. Guys think, gals feel. Look at their comments. Guys are curious and adventuresome, gals more cautious, reserved and as protector of the young, more safety conscious.

 

One might as well call it scouting, because for the most part it has been neutered.... Meaning neither sex, (not what you first thought, Guys!

[TSS_Chris 36]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

@jblake: I agree with you 100% that pencil whipping is worthless. If you want Scouts to really learn to think on their feet you've got to put them in situations where they can fail -- miserably -- and not get hurt. If you're allowing a patrol of FC Scouts to hike alone in the mountains without them first proving they can think on their feet, then you're an irresponsible teacher.

 

You want them to prove they can use that map and compass? Enter them in am orienteering competition through your local IOF chapter. Let them make as many mistakes as they want. It's controlled, so they won't get too lost, but they might score lower than some little old ladies and a den of Tigers.

 

Your other examples are failures of teaching and leadership. If your troop is trusting any one person to pack the trailer alone, then everyone -- including you -- should forgo their sleeping bags in camaraderie with the boy whose was forgotten. If its just a few boys and they're not using the checklist, then the Scout responsible for the final check should give their gear to the boy whose was left behind.

 

And if Jimmy gets hurt, the correct response is to run and get the SM. The SM is the one who is in ultimately in charge of the boys safety. However, the Scouts shouldn't just be allowed to go run and play.

 

@BD: I like JTE because it IS a guide for the clueless. The BSA has precious few of these. But does it surprise you that someone who is short cutting the rank requirements is also short cutting their JTE scorecard too?

[Twocubdad 665]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

Hmmmm..... Three days in to a week long trek and Scout One and Two are only now remembering they have the map and compass? Where was Mr. Motivation while they were GETTING lost?

 

Success had been defined as 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. I'd put motivation and competence at about the same ratio. Charging up and down mountains just because there are mountains to charge up and down isn't necessarily helpful. While inspirational leadership is a necessary component, nothing motivates me like someone who knows what the hell they're doing.

[Stosh 3452]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

@jblake: I agree with you 100% that pencil whipping is worthless. If you want Scouts to really learn to think on their feet you've got to put them in situations where they can fail -- miserably -- and not get hurt. If you're allowing a patrol of FC Scouts to hike alone in the mountains without them first proving they can think on their feet, then you're an irresponsible teacher.

 

I don't think so. It's the responsibility of the teacher to teach, but it's the student's responsibility to learn. A student doesn't need to prove anything if he's learned the material. This isn't school, there's no final test and then you graduate. Except this is how the world of management works. You do the work, get the certificate and you're good to go. Might even have passed the test. But that's the end of the process. Your trained, now go do your job.

 

You want them to prove they can use that map and compass? Enter them in am orienteering competition through your local IOF chapter. Let them make as many mistakes as they want. It's controlled, so they won't get too lost, but they might score lower than some little old ladies and a den of Tigers.

 

I don't care if they can prove anything, I don't care if they make mistakes, but if they learned well in the first place those mistakes would be minimal. Leadership isn't about proving anything. Management evaluates skills and applies the best based on proven talent based solely on getting the job done. Embarrassing the boys in front of little old ladies and Tiger cubs really doesn't accomplish anything either. Do that often enough as your example of leadership and you will soon find no one following, your trust and credibility is gone!

 

Your other examples are all attempts to blame the failures of teaching and leadership. Again, the failure comes in the boys not learning. You are assuming that the boys are not responsible for having to learn. it's the teacher's fault if the student doesn't learn. Nope, not going to buy that assumption. If your troop is trusting any one person to pack the trailer alone, then everyone -- including you -- should forgo their sleeping bags in camaraderie with the boy whose was forgotten.

 

And taking responsibilities for one's own irresponsibility is somebody else's fault? Sorry, don't buy that conclusion one bit. Everyone of your issues always comes back to it's someone else's fault! Maturity and responsibility is based on taking one's OWN responsibility for their actions. If they didn't learn, that's their own fault.

 

its just a few boys and they're not using the checklist, then the Scout responsible for the final check should give their gear to the boy whose was left behind.

 

No the boy should have taken care of his own gear and not dumped that responsibility onto someone else. He should suffer the consequences of his own actions or in this care failure of action.

 

And if Jimmy gets hurt, the correct response is to run and get the SM. The SM is the one who is in ultimately in charge of the boys safety. However, the Scouts shouldn't just be allowed to go run and play.

 

In an ADULT-LED program you would be correct, but the BSA, (theoretically) promotes a BOY-LED program. Your assumption is valid in schools where the teacher is notified of a problem, in church where the youth director is notified, or at home where the parent is notified. Well, BSA teaches boys to lead, not just follow, it's the only program that does. If a boy always has to run off to the SM when someone gets hurt, why bother to teach the scouts first aid??????? And the scouts shouldn't just be allowed to go run and play? Where did that come from. In my book that's called having fun. I thought that was what scouting was all about!!!!!

[Basementdweller 608]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

So your going to hand the PLC the JTE sheet and tell them you want gold..

 

I think your way off base......The don't care about it......It is an adult thing....

 

Let the boys plan their outings, let them recruit their friends....Let them have fun and adventure......Don't burden them with paper work that is complete BS.

 

So would you have them fill out the tour permit too????

 

Like I said earlier.....The absolute worst Troop in our District is Gold level.. When I say worst, I mean wood craft and first aid........

[MattR 2659]

Fred and Eagledad, what you're describing is well written in the book The Last Child in the Woods. This is more a society thing than the Boy Scouts. I can't do anything about society but I can work with my patrol leaders. I'm always happy for a PL to ask if he can take his patrol on a 5 mile hike without adults. I've suggested it with only a little luck. Next week is summer camp and maybe I'll have the PLs plan their own 5 mile hike for the new scouts in their patrol.

 

One magical thing about boys is they will find the fun in a new situation. Maybe they don't know how to create their own new situation. When my son was little he'd be sitting inside and I'd tell him to go outside and he'd complain and moan but finally go outside. About 4 hours later I'm wondering around looking for him. He had a blast. Maybe I just need to tell my patrols to get out of camp.

[King Ding Dong 540]

Maybe the BSA is to prissy, tough call. Certainly some troops are. Just be thankful the BSA has not resorted to Incident Reports. Every time a kid stubs his toe or swallows water at a pool you have to fill out the dreaded two page incident report. That would kill scouting. I wouldn't put up with it. Even if a scout breaks a leg on a campout, is there a form to fill out? I can't recall one. That's not prissy.

[RememberSchiff 3663]

Incident Information Report

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-016_fillable.pdf

[TSS_Chris 36]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

@jblake47: I feel really sorry for you. Apparently, you've never had a good mentor in your life. Have I had bosses who showed me something, and then threw me to the wolves? Sure, and most of the time the company paid dearly for my hard-won experience. The good ones I've had took the time to explain why each step was important, and let me prove I knew things on a smaller project before going full scale.

 

As for some of your other comments, you don't seem to understand that Scouting is about functioning as a group. If a team of Scouts has the responsibility to load the trailer, and they fail, then they should be accountable to the boy they failed. If the leadership team failed because they gave that assignment without properly supervising or training the individual, then they should be held accountable too. If the Scout incorrectly assumed someone else would take care of their stuff for them, then yes, that's his own problem, and he needs to deal with it.

 

Yes, Scouting is a boy-led program. However, Scouts are minors, so as the adults on the trip, we are morally and legally responsible for their well-being. That doesn't mean we have to take over for them, nor do we have to keep them from having fun, but an occasional prod to make sure they are making the right choices is warranted and welcome.

 

And if someone gets hurt, as the adult in charge, I'm going to be held accountable, so yes, I'd better know about it as soon as it happens.

 

I inadvertently deleted part of my original comment that after a scout gets hurt, the others shouldn't be allowed to run off and play. They need to attend to their friend's injuries -- if appropriate -- or stay with him until the professionals arrive.

[ThomasJefferson 33]

Agreed. Scouting has gone from being an outdoorsman's adventuring program for boys and men with a "law" that guides behavior to being a church program with some token outdooring in it. The focus is no longer on being a capable Kudu-worthy first class scout who can make his own hiking stick, camp under a home-made tent, and shoot squirrels and shishkabob them. Now it is about having family interventions, scoutmaster conferences, citizenship badges, meetings, elections, "boy led" and getting that eagle badge on your resume.

 

Scouting was originally mainly focused on the outdoors. All of the original literature is about plants, animals, lighting fires, putting together a sleeping area, shelter, orienteering, and riding a horse. Today, it is all about church, family, faith, etc.

 

We've gone from learning to be pioneers to learning to be priests. Blech.

Religion has not always been forefront like it is now. It was just part of normal culture of the 19th century Victorians to mention it considerable. During the 1910's - 1950's, the handbook tells you how big of a component it was: It merited a mention that the scout law and duty to god were blah blah blah and that's it. The whole thing today with Scouts being a Sunday school class with right wingers everywhere screaming about Jesus and the oppression of the left - that's all new.

[ThomasJefferson 33]

ThomasJefferson ... You've got too much agenda. Don't hijack this into some atheist rank. Scouting's always had a strong faith element, right from the start. Plus every man's man that I've know has had a strong faith. They might not shove it down your throat, but it's there.

 

You don't need to deny God to be a man's man. And you don't need to hijack this thread with some atheist junk.

You don't need to deny my denial of God to be a Man's man, or piss and moan about thread hijacking expressing your fear. That's pretty much the opposite of being a man's man.

 

Today's scouting is wussified because of two things: lawsuits and the Mormons.

 

Lawsuits have driven BSA into a corner over faith and morality, because they took too hard of a stand in the 90's, executed a PR disaster, and lost the left wing of their membership. Now they are stuck, and Mormons have crept in quietly, and scouting has become more about "wholesome American old-fashioned virgin until marriage fun."

 

But that's not what it was when I was a kid, and I live in the deep, deep South. When I was a kid, scouting was an outdoor program. We never prayed at any of our events. We never had a chaplain. We never discussed if anyone believed in God. There were no faith requirements. We talked about "duty to god" as a passing thing, and viewed the law and oath as our rules of good behavior.

 

I never remember any of the BS that goes on today being around then. Today, you even bring up faith and you get a teary eyed protest of how Christians are oppressed, and people pray with almost vengeful hate as if their praying is intended more to outrage people who won't like it more than it is to commune with the Almighty.