BSA Bylaws, Rules and Regulations

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I know Ed, I know. I never do learn. The funny thing is, most of what has been written in this thread, and by who, could have been predicted after the initial post.

[Bob White 20]

NJ if you are referring to the fact that you can expect my posts to counter fantasy with fact then you are correct in your anticipation.

 

If you mean that I think posters deserve the truth rather than have other postersuse emotional rhetoric that continues to fuel undue anger and hostility you are correct again.

 

I think what you trued to do with jhnky was to fan his emotions without providing any real information. This makes for a more interesting and arguementative thread that brings you and a few others personal glee. But it does nothing to actually help the poster.

 

I am not sure which is worse. To not have knowledge and ask questions, or to have some knowledge but lack the courtesy to share it truthfully.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Bob, I think what is worse is to just make things up, and then deny the clear meaning of your words, as you have done in this thread. I'm done sparring with you, in this thread anyway, so say whatever you want.

[Bob White 20]

Eamonn, I am seriously hovering over the backspace key before I post this message.

 

NJ,

You haven't the tools to spar with anyone with any amount of knowledge in the scouting program.

 

You are an instigator. You appear to hang around this particular forum to add opinion and emotion rather than BSA knowledge or information. Which is fine as long as you are honest enough to say that is your purpose. But you hide behind accusations that you leave unsupported and unproven

 

You cannot supply so much as one piece of evidence to support the accusations you made against me in this thread.

 

You could no more argue scouting program with me than you could with Eamonn. In fact i could easily list a dozen regular posters who would KO you in the scouting discussion ring.

 

I am glad that you and Ed agree, and I am not surprised. At least there is a match you stand a good chance of winning. (and some think I have no sense of humor).

[boleta 10]

As a relatively new participant of the Forum, I find the dynamics of the last few posts fascinating. Each time Bob White has quoted rules, regulations, handbooks or manuals (of which I own most) he has ultimately been correct. This thread has so much subjective information in it that the conclusions to many of the arguments are tenuous at best.

 

Bob, you recently asked in another thread, what is the problem? You have felt attacked on occasion. But you attack others when you say things like "You need to understand that your biggest problem is a personal lack of knowledge of the BSA structure" when you don't even know the individual. What you say may be true, but the individual bearing the brunt of your message still feels attacked. I think you could convey the information without the additional personal opinion, unless it is simply for the sake of stimulating the discussion.

[Bob White 20]

"What you say may be true, but the individual bearing the brunt of your message still feels attacked.

 

I think what has to be considered boleta is intent. As you pointed uot the fact that the biggest problem was his lack on knowlkedge is the truth. I did not make that up and I even showed that through the many misconceptions he had. I explained that the problem can be solved, and gave him numerous resources to correct the problem. He may very well have a serious problem in the council administration but until he learns what the administration is supposed to do and how they are supposed to do it he can never sind a solution.

 

Unlike others in this particular forum I did not just say that he was wrong, I explained what was right and why. While I know it is uncomfortable to hear that you are incorrect you cannot blame the messenger if the message is true.

 

And yes I do go on on the defense at times (witness my last post)but I haven't attacked a person for not knowing, only for refusing to learn or use what they know is factual.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Weighing in at 232 pounds of fighting furr is the one, the only Fuzzzzy da Bear!!!! Yeaaaaaaa!

 

I have come not to knock ya down but to pounce around and growl and to scare ya so here goes.

 

Knowing about the corporate side of Scouting is like Poison Ivy, don't touch it. Leave it to BW. It is ugly stuff. It is also best left to the suits that can get it down with a long handled spoon.

 

Even if you happen upon the rules, you are looking at a game that is already being played by those skilled in the high art of beeswax. You are a rank newcomer and the game is locked.

 

I want to address an issue that I really know something about and believe it or not is important and is not written down in a book with rules to be read back to you. You think that you can waltz into a board meeting and strong arm a bunch of guys out of a decision because you have found a loop hole or that maybe they haven't followed procedure and you can get their decision overturned. There is a 99% chance of that never even coming close to happening.

 

So back up, what is the issue? It is the camp property being sold. Let me say it again. They have sold "the" Camp Property! One more time but more slowly, "Those Bums" have sold our Sacred Cow. One more time for emphasis, Those Idiots have stolen the one thing we loved and made a pilgrimage to every year! Do you see how meaning changes when the same thing is said over and over again? It is fascinating.

 

Let's say for sake of their side of the argument that selling the Sacred Cow was imperative and it was the only thing that saved the day for the whole council. The whole council could have gone under if they had not sold it. That is now a good argument.

Well, let's water it down a little for the sake of your side of the argument. They arbitrarily sold a very important relic that many adored but someone greedy for money has thoughtlessly and needlessly acted totally out of personal gain. Now, that casts it in a little different light.

 

One more time, for clarity sake, something of great value was sold after much deliberation and personal grief but it had to be done. I now regret doing it but as a group and with the best interests of the council at stake it had to be done.

 

You see, we can say it many different ways but what it comes down to is that you have lost something of value. You were not personally consulted and your feelings were cast aside for something you do not consider to be worthwhile or maybe you were never told what it was that was traded. Nonetheless, you were left out of the loop and now all you have are your feelings of loss, betrayal, and Grief

 

How you act now is based on what you have learned as a Scout. Change has come to you in the form of the death of something loved. You cannot change it and even if you could something will forever be missing.

 

How you come to live with death is where religion takes us and it is where the Higher Power performs the miracle of absolution and/or forgiveness within you.

 

It is not the first time or the last time that you will encounter this in your life. Do you roll over and let it happen? Most of the time your choices are limited and the options are generally down to how you make it through the day. You can also set new goals and find a new place to pour your emotions. It can be done most of us have had to do it.

 

FB

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Thanks FB but just because I understand the administartive levels of the BSA doesn't mean I spend time there. When training or commissioning, Volunteers have all kinds of questions. I can do like some and make up answers, or give my opinion about what I "think" or "feel" happens, but out of respect for the person asking the question I seek the facts before I share the answer.

Rare?

Perhaps.

Time intensive?

At times I suppose.

Why do it that way?

I believe it is the scout-like thing to do.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

JKHNY,

 

What I would like to hear from you is about the camp that was sold. I know that it was important to you and to many others and that there were numerous memories lost. I would really like to hear about a few of them.

 

your saddness is shared,

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Eamonn 61]

When I seen this on Friday. I saw the question and the answer that Bob gave. Which was and is right.

I have a copy of the document in fact it is two documents that were in question. I know that they are some where and I know that they are a 1998 printing. So they are just taking up space where ever they are.

Sad to say jkhny (Do you mind if I call you JK?)the document that you are asking about is not going to be of much help.

I am hoping that Neil will join in this thread at some time. Being as he serves as a Vice- President in a council.

I am not really sure what you are looking for?

If you are looking for a way to dismiss or fire the Scout Executive. He serves at the pleasure of the Executive Board. They are elected at the Annual meeting. All Charter Reps are invited to this meeting and can vote. Sad as you may find it once these guys are in suits or no suits they are in for a year.

Firing a Scout Exec. Is not something to be taken lightly and can be very costly. Especially if he decides to file an unfair dismissal suit.I feel sure that the Gentleman from the great state of New Jersey will agree legal fees can be very high.

In our Council there was a parting of the ways with a Scout Exec. It wasn't very nice. We ended paying him a big lump sum and the Council was put on probation by the Region for a year.

Of course I have no idea why the property is being sold. But if things were done correctly it isn't the Scout Exec. Who is selling it or who has sold it. It is or was the Executive Board.

There are times when unpopular decisions are made. In fact I have just gone through something similar but on a much smaller scale.

For the first time ever we as a council hired an outside company to take care of the food service at camp. There were many reasons for this. Being as we had them we no longer needed the guy who was in charge of the kitchen. In fact he was one big reason why we hired the food service company. This guy is active in the OA serves as a volunteer. He wasn't very happy and soon he and his friends circled their wagons. There were all sorts of threats and talk of boycotts. None of which came to light. Of course this guy still isn't a happy camper and is still "Bad mouthing" The Council, the camping committee and those of us who met with the food service company. I have been accused of taking a bribe!!

I feel sure in time that this will pass. However in the light of how he has acted I feel sure that he will never be asked to serve the council again. For my part I sure as heck would never ask him to do anything for me not now and not in the future. Maybe just maybe this is what is happening with some of the long time volunteers in your council??

JK, while I sure that you are a very nice chap and you are doing what you see is in the best interest of the youth in your council. It is very hard to change the decision of an Executive Board. I would hope and kind of think that they didn't make their decision in the dark. While the courts might be able to offer some satisfaction. Boycotting efforts that support the council will only hurt the people that you want to help most - The Youth Members.

While it would be more then a little presumptuous for me to tell you what to do. I (Wait for it) would think long and hard before you take any action that is going to hurt our kids. At present in our Council we have a little over 10,000 youth and a budget of $1.2 Million. A bad popcorn sale and some of the services we offer will have to be cut.

Eamonn.

[boleta 10]

I became interested in Council and District activities as a CM, then ASM. I am now a District Committee Chairman. In this position, I am a member of the Executive Committee of our Council.

A fellow Scouter who is quite enthusiastic and excitable was certain that fiscal shenanigans were going on in Council. He is no longer welcome at Headquarters. Looking into this matter was one of the reasons I decided to be more active at the higher levels of our Council. As I have been more involved, I have learned that the running of the Council is more complicated than one might consider at first glance. I have been a passive observer so far (3 years) because I still really don't have a clear understanding of all of the goings on. We are volunteers. I think it is better to try to steer the ship from inside than to sink it from the outside.

[evmori 11]

"You could no more argue scouting program with me than you could with Eamonn. In fact i could easily list a dozen regular posters who would KO you in the scouting discussion ring."

 

I know Bob won't see this but I couldn't resist.

 

Bob, you are a very knowledgeable Scouter. That is apparent. You are also a very opinionated Scouter. That, too, is apparent. You give you opinions as fact. Sometimes you are correct, sometimes not. It's the times you are not that tick people off! You defend your opinions that are incorrect to the death until someone proves you wrong then you curl up & slink away!

 

I would bet those dozen poster you talk of all agree with you all the time. If they don't you think they are wrong & delivering the BSA program in the wrong manner!

 

And a man with your knowledge & job should be more careful with his postings. Your spelling & is atrocious! You sometimes post uncompleted sentences! This site has a spell checker. I suggest you use it! If you want to come across as the great "Know-It-All" Scouter you should really learn to post like one.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Jason OK 10]

Ed truly speaks with wisdom!

[packsaddle 753]

jkhny, By now you may be experiencing a splendid example of 'deja vu all over again'. Since no other person has mentioned it, Welcome to the Forums.

Here you will find a microcosm that is more or less representative of the volunteer side of the program, both good and bad. For reasons I don't understand, very few scouting professionals respond to the issues aired in these forums.

 

Some of the more vocal respondents have already made their opening volleys. I find it useful to examine the date they registered and compare it to the number of postings. Get the point?

As for myself, I have noticed some of the same things you have mentioned although I believe our council would fare better in your judgment.

I took Fuzzy Bear's advice long before he gave it here and devote my time and resources to the boys. I have learned that by keeping the troop strong, nothing that happens in the district or council beyond can kill us. We understand the score and self-reliance makes us strong. We have survived nicely for more than 50 years and will continue to do so...and it will be because of the dedication of the volunteers and recognition of that fact by the community and parents.

I sympathize with your frustration. But know that there is much good to be done by working with the boys. Watch their faces. Have fun. Do the right thing.

[boleta 10]

I always wondered what District and Council did when I was a Cubmaster and everything seemed to be just fine with our unit. The kids advanced, the summertime program went well, and the pinewood derby went without a hitch. The problem is not with the successful unit with history and well trained leaders as assets.

 

packsaddle says

"I have learned that by keeping the troop strong, nothing that happens in the district or council beyond can kill us."

 

There will be new units with untrained scouters. There will be a Day Camp to organize and run. Even the Spring and Fall Camporees need District approval and assistance. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. The District Committee and Commissioners can use all the help they can get. They are volunteers too.

 

Having said that, some people excel at the unit level. They are great with the kids and provide excellent leadership for Scouting. It is understandable if they have no interest in what is happening outside of their unit. But please don't complain about the program if you aren't trying to give input into it.