NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Laurie says: I have wondered if it wouldn't be a good thing to do, to learn to overcome a negative part of life and turn it around for good. As Scouters, don't we try to teach the youth we work to do this very thing? To rise above the circumstances and to learn to do more than they might even dream they could do? Absolutely, and I am sure many of us know of examples of this. A couple of weeks ago, I sat on a First Class board of review for a young man in our troop who has cerebral palsy, is wheelchair bound and has very limited use of his hands and arms. He also has extreme difficulty speaking, but it is obvious that there is a mind at work that is a match for any other boy in the troop -- it's just that some of the words take a long time to get out, and some of them never do. (It appears that he is a freshman in our local high school, which means that he is either one or two years "behind" where he would normally be, but considering his circumstances, that is rather amazing all by itself.) When we were discussing him after he was excused from the BOR, I told the other members that I thought this kid and what he has accomplished are truly inspirational, and I meant it. What he has been able to overcome, with a lot of assistance from both the adults and boys in the troop, is awe-inspiring. I remember him from Cub Scouts (he was three years ahead of my son) and it seemed at the time that he was able to communicate very little; his progress in that area alone has been phenomenal. He is 15 years old and took almost 4 years to make First Class, which to me is an indication that he was really not given any "slack" other than certain specific things that are marked "waived" in his book. (I know that there has been specific communication regarding him between the troop and the district advancement committee and I am fairly sure he has already been given until his 21st birthday, if he needs it, to make Eagle, which I think he will do. In looking at his advancement record, he is only two "partials" on Eagle-required MB's, 4 months in his position as Troop Librarian, and a few service hours from making Star. I am sure he will have a tough road after that, but he also has a lot of support.) This boy also has attended summer camp with the troop every year. (His mother, currently the troop Advancement Chair, also goes to summer camp, at least partly to assist with his care.) About 2 summers ago the troop obtained a donation of a golf cart which has been modified to accommodate his wheelchair, to get him around summer camp. When the terrain allows, he rolls off the golf cart and travels around in his wheelchair with other boys taking turns pushing him. Doing all this is a big enterprise and he attends very few weekend camping trips where the terrain is often difficult, but he does attend other weekend events such as first aid meets, service projects, Scout Sunday, etc. Laurie, like your nephew, this boy does not complain about his limitations. There have been a few times when the other boys, in their zeal for whatever the activity of the moment is, forget to take the extra time needed to fully include him, and I have heard him say something very softly like "Shouldn't I be over there with them?" But I don't take that as a complaint, I take it as an expression of desire to participate, and to have others just slow down for a second so he can be in on the activity. Anyway, there is a lot more that I could write about this young man, and what he has done and what the troop has done to help him, and maybe someday with more time I will do so. But I think you get the idea. It is a perfect example of Scouting accomplishing what Laurie is talking about. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Off and running on another lovely day, "Do you walk into a mechanic's shop and tell them what to do? Do you walk into a doctor's office and tell them what to do? " But yet you walk into a Scouter's Forum and tell Scouters what to do, whats the difference to what you have posted and what you are doing? "You don't know the first thing about education" Well actually I do, check out my post on the "Who is Wheeler" thread posted Wednesday 2/18/2004 at 2:59.55 pm. I think I do a pretty good explanation on Bloom's Taxonomy. You might not agree with the example I use and as far as I know you may consider Bloom to be an effeminate fop, but to say no one on the forum knows the first thing about education is an error. And I might be more impressed by Leon Podles, who may be an alright guy, if I was familiar with his work but with your record on accuracy exposed by both myself and NJ, I'll hold off on regarding Leon as the last word in the state of the church. As far as your comments on the Catholic Church, this is the first time I have ever seen anyone derided because they preach love. Then again, they may have a basis for this "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35) And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13 I would have thought there were worse things than preaching love... Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Dan says: I know I should not do this but at least I did not say I would ignore him and than not ignore him. Yeah, now I wonder who would do a thing like that. ::Looking around innocently:: (Or, for those who have seen the movie "A Christmas Story": "Flick? Flick Who?" (As Flick is writhing around outside with his tongue stuck to the telephone pole.)) Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 The flippant behavior of most of these people here really is a sign of childishness and not gravitas. OGE, I know for a fact that you do not know the first thing about love and you definetly didn't know that saying belonged to Anaxamander and not Socrates. Define Love for me OGE. You and the Catholic Church don't know the first thing about love. See I study which is a virtue and you do not. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 paedogogy, is this a word you made up? Cause it ain't in Websters. Dan, I think you'll find it without the first "a." Wheeler apparently thinks it's "cool" to use the "ae" combination (which when printed with the correct typeface symbol, has the two letters squeezed together) that is often seen in translations of Greek words. However, since we are speaking English here, I don't think the "ae" is necessary. Wheeler says: You don't know the first thing about education... Since you seem to be addressing the entire forum here, I think you have now put yourself in the same category as the former Minister of Information of Iraq (or was it the Minister of Defense, I kept getting those guys mixed up), who as the U.S. tanks were rumbling through the outskirts of Baghdad, was proudly and happily proclaiming that the Satanic American invaders had been repulsed many miles away and would never pose a threat to the capital city. Talk is cheap. I mean, do we all have to pull out our degrees and our resumes? OK, here's some of mine. (I apologize to the rest of the forum, in advance, for the following.) I've got two degrees, one at the doctoral level. How many do you have? I have taught (though not a lot), and have tried to continue learning, through reading. As a parent, I have helped guide three children through their own educational process, through various challenges and with varying degrees of success. (My daughter has made dean's list in college, three semesters out of three.) Since most of us in this forum are parents, I am sure all of them could say very much the same thing, or more, depending on the ages of their children. I also happen to serve on a local board of education, and so I attend at least three meetings a month at which education is discussed, and I helped found and once chaired an education foundation to raise and distribute money for "extras" in the school system. In all of these activities, I have basically been surrounded by teachers and have learned a lot from them about what they do, and why. So no, I guess I don't know the first thing about education... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 "OGE, I know for a fact that you do not know the first thing about love and you definetly didn't know that saying belonged to Anaxamander and not Socrates." Not only that, but I have no idea how this relates to anything I posted, please enlighten me I agree to study is a virture, to acurrately portray what you study is also a virture Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 How the saying, "I am citizen of the world" you said is attributed to Socrates. It was actually said by Anaxamender. But I still don't see your definition of love OGE. To NJCubScouter, I also attend the Battle Creek school board meetings. One of the teachers proudly displayed her students who were studying Mexican immigration. If John Adams, quoted hugely from Cicero in his "Defense of the Constitution", then how come not a single public school student reads Cicero? What does Mexican immigration have to do with the price of tea in China? I sat next to a freshman in High school. He was doing a paper on child labor rights in India. What does child labor rights have to do with a single thing here in America? absolutely nothing. These students don't know squat about their own country. What these children are learning to do is to be 'LITTLE MARXIST SOCIALIST LAWYERS' but are absolutely clueless on the difference of a Republic and a Democracy and are absolutely ignorant of the Western culture. The President of the School Board says "We teach character" just after he mentions that they are trying their hardest to get federal monies. I said, Point out to me sir in the Constitution, where the Federal Government is responsible for education? Can you give me Article and section #? He couldn't. I said the first principle of leadership is to set the example. What example are you setting? The disregard of the law for filthy lucre? Because that is what you are really teaching the children, that for the sake of filthy lucre, one does anything including breaking the Constitution. I said, "It takes CHARACTER to obey the law." I said, "You don't know what character is at all and you claim to teach it." The whole American educational system and style of paedogogy is from the supposedly "Father of American Education", John Dewey. John Dewey was a Marxist. Link to post Share on other sites
Marty_Doyle 10 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Dan - I think it was Col. Potter who used to refer to Frank Burns as a "horse's patoot", referring to the posterior regions. "Patuty", I guess, is an alternate spelling of the dimunutive (similar to Thomas Seaton being an alternate spelling of Ernest Thompson Seton). Laurie's a rock (saxa or hoya?), OGE is a traitor, the entire hierarchy and membership of the Roman Catholic Church (guess Eastern Rites are safe) is "wimpy" and knows nothing of agape, all women are evil, no one on this board is knowledgable or educated, et cetera. Wheeler has the zeal of the true believer. He has the "big picture" and we do not. He will reveal it to us at some point in the future (meaning we will have many more of these posts to slog through). And he thinks that when he does, we and, by extension, BSA, will be converted to his world-view. But we, the Scouters and Scouts who post/visit here, are also true believers, in Scouting. We are mostly volunteers, of both sexes, covering a wide spectrum of political beliefs, religious backgrounds, attention to the detail of BSA policies, etc. We are not homogeneous; we most often agree to disagree. Given that, one final post will not move all of us anywhere. (Except maybe to e-applause). He will not convert us; we will not convert him. But these threads have contained interesting and thoughful responses. Sometimes humourous ones, too. And on rare occasion, some of Wheeler's posts have had an idea buried in them that could lead to an engrossing intellectual discourse. But they are wrapped up in all of the other baggage,and it isn't worth the effort. It is like someone said - these threads are like a car wreck - some people have to slow down. I know I shouldn't respond. I keep telling myself not to. But I am weak. I am really going to try not to. I will continue to browse through for the entertainment value (which is of course, nihilistic), but wiill strive mightily not to post. Ave atque vale. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 All of the following links attribute the quote: "I am not an Athenian, I am not A Greek, I am a citizen of the World" to Socrates http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/socrates107020.html https://ideotrope.org/index.pl?node_id=9647 http://pub18.ezboard.com/fbalkanshellenicforum.showMessage?topicID=953.topic http://www.robertmuller.org/volume/ideas0501.html http://www.goodmorningworld.org/documents/030505v1.pdf now, they could all be wrong, the web being what it is, but where is your proof that that Anaxamender said it? BTW, I am ashamed I did not pick up on the Seton thing, another error for the champion of truth and knowledge, I wonder what else he says is wrong? Link to post Share on other sites
WHEELER 10 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 OGE you started this question in the thread of "The Scoutmaster, the Efficient cause". I went back and retrieved my answer because apparently you never went back to the thread to read it." Socrates was a citizen of Athens. He refused to escape his death sentence in order to be an obedient citizen. From An Introduction to Greek Philosophy, by J.V. Luce, l992 pg 66. This is about Anaxagoras "...when someone asked him, 'Have you no care for your country?' he replied, 'I have a great care for my country', (pointing to the sky." Mr. Luce remarks immediately "The anecdote marks him out as the first explicit 'cosmopotitan', that is to say, 'citizen of the universe', owing allegiance to scientific truth rather than to Athens or Clazomenae." Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 So those links are wrong? Will you be notifying the webmasters of the error? Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I think it was Henry Mancini who penned "Love is a Many Splendid Thing" Link to post Share on other sites
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 You are correct Ed, but the J Geils Band said it best: You love her But she loves him And he loves somebody else You just can't win And so it goes Till the day you die This thing they call love It's gonna make you cry I've had the blues The reds and the pinks One thing for sure (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah Two by two and side by side Love's gonna find you yes it is You just can't hide You'll hear it call Your heart will fall Then love will fly It's gonna soar I don't care for any casanova thing All I can say is Love stinks (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah I've been through diamonds I've been through minks I've been through it all Love stinks (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah (Love stinks) Love stinks yeah yeah Link to post Share on other sites
Proud Eagle 13 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 That is IT! I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it any more! I was OK until, until Wheeler just went too far. I was sympathetic for him personally. I liked the idea of bringing a bit of philosophy and idealism (though not the boat load we got) into things from time to time. I even liked reexamining certain fundamental ideas about Scouting. It is after all, good to be challenged from time to time. I have even agreed with a few of Wheeler's conclusions. Other times I have agreed with him in part, but thought he went just a bit to far, or took a wrong turn at the last intersection. Now, however, Wheeler has gone much too far. He didn't just make a wrong turn, he drove off the side of a mountain this time.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle) Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I have to admit, Wheeler, that you made me laugh with that one about asking a city school board president about the constitutional basis for the federal grant funds his board was applying for. I'd pay money to see what MY board's president would do with that question. Of course he didn't know. It's not his job to know. It's his job to know that the money is available and that the administrators working for his board are doing whatever they can, short of agreeing to do something that is educationally inappropriate, to get it. It's also his job to tell his public that his board is doing whatever they can, including getting federal funds to minimize the property tax burden (if that is how schools are financed in Michigan) on the city residents. (The voters, that is.) As for where the constitutional authority is, I have told you, but it doesn't fit in to your program, so you don't listen. Oh, and by the way, I want my children knowing about the whole world, not just the part of it they live in. Link to post Share on other sites
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