andrews 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 It is interesting to note that Proverbs deals with just such an issue. It says to answer a fool in his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes. But then it immediately says to not answer him in his follow for it will just suck you down. We have done enough answering, and had enough issues ignored that it is time to move on. Brad Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 I know I shouldn't be doing this but I have to ask? When did atheism become a religion? Link to post Share on other sites
Weekender 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Author Share Posted February 7, 2002 EVMORI, Obviously, atheism is not a religion. By definition atheism is a DIS-belief in any diety and therefore is the complete lack of religion. I don't think what's his name was claiming that it is a religion, just that by requiring a profession of some type of faith in God the BSA was being disciminatory to those who could not or will not make such a profession. In that sense he/she/it was correct, however there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, that is one thing particularly right with the BSA. As a Christian American I'm obligated to tolerate another persons choice to live in an ungodly manner but I am not obligated to embrace it or to associate with anyone I deem perverse. BTW: If I didn't disagree there would be nothing to tolerate. It must chap the ACLU's hide to think that freedom of speech extends to conservatives too. Sorry, I guess I'm rambling. Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Weekender, I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement It must chap the ACLU's hide to think that freedom of speech extends to conservatives too. But I would extend this to all the leftist groups (NOW, pro-abortion, homosexual agenda, etc.). Anyone that uses their freedom of speech to denounce their agenda is then negatively labeled (chauvinist, homophobe, etc). Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Ironic isn't it? These same groups (NOW, pro-abortion, homosexual agenda, etc.) characterize themselves as being victims of stereotypes and oppression. They denounce society (read white heterosexual males) claiming that they have demeaned their opinions and suppressed their right to express the same. But what happens when anyone refuses to agree with them? They attack their critics with stereotypes, demean their opinions (if the not the actual person or group), and they condemn anyone willing to listen to them. UNBELEIVEABLE! Their shame has no boundaries. Link to post Share on other sites
MomScouter 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Merlyn, I appreciate your comments and information. I find a lot of what you have said to be very logical. Discussion is good, dissenting opinions thought provoking. The topics you have presented need to be discussed by all scouters because they are not going to go away. There is dissension among scouters about the atheist issue as well as the homosexual issue; whole councils have petitioned the national office for change. Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 "There is dissension among Scouters about the atheist issue as well as the homosexual issue; whole councils have petitioned the national office for change." 1 - BSA is comprised of hundreds, if not thousands of Councils. It shouldn't surprise any of us that a few folks have strayed from BSA's vision for Scouting. Your statement infers that there may be a significantly large enough contingent to evoke these changes. I don't buy it. By the way, I'm fairly certain that most of these councils are from the San Francisco and New York area. 2 - The day Merlyn and others achieve these changes; will be the day BSA changes forever. BSA will gain thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands of atheists and homosexuals, but they will lose hundreds of thousands of God loving, God fearing Scouts and Scouters. It's my firm belief that there are far more of "us" than "them". If I'm wrong, I truly grieve for BSA and the folks who believe in the program as Baden-Powell originally envisioned it. Link to post Share on other sites
Dedicated Dad 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 I'm fairly certain that most of these councils are from the San Francisco and New York area. Boston Minuteman Council is one I know of for sure. will lose hundreds of thousands of God loving, God fearing Scouts and ScoutersBig fat bumpedy bump to that! Link to post Share on other sites
sctmom 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 I said I was staying out of this area but obviously do not have good self control at times. In my opinion, even if BSA's stance should change, I don't think you are going to suddenly see this large influx of homosexuals and atheists into BSA. Those who are fighting the policy tooth and nail from the outside will go on to fight something else. A few will join, but not a lot. Maybe a troop here and there might be different but overall they aren't going to dismantle BSA. What percentage of conservative parents have their children joining BSA? From what I see it is not the majority. I just don't know how you can't at least give it a try. Cub Scouting has been a great chance for me to spend time with my son and to guide me in teaching him things he needs to know (first aid, citizenship, independence, etc.). Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 "bumpedy bump"??? That's one I haven't heard before. Is that a sign of your age? Or, is a sign of your geography? Based on your previous posts, I have to assume it's some sort of affirmation (we seem to be cut from the same cloth). Link to post Share on other sites
Weekender 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Author Share Posted February 7, 2002 I'm afraid that if the BSA EVER changes their stance on the homosexual or atheist issues that only a few will beat me to the door (I know there are some who would hold the door for me, but I don't worry about them). I've loved and supported the BSA since I was a kid BECAUSE it held me, my peers, and my leaders to higher moral standards than even my own parents did. I needed that moral compass in my life and there are a lot of young men who need it now (The church services I attended in my troop as a boy were the only church services I got for a long time). I can't be part of an organization that promotes, or even tolerates perversion in it's ranks. Young men need guidance to make the hard (right) choices in life and to seek out truth. As much as I believe people like the troll have a right to their opinion, I will fight to the end to keep them from currupting this organization just so they can feel better about their perverse lifestyle. OK...if anyone has a ladder I'll climb down off this soap box up here on top of my high horse...but just for a little while Link to post Share on other sites
andrews 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 I would expect a fair number of adult volunteers to leave if they changed their policy, with very few joining because of such a change. Those who are most fighting for the change would likely despise those in the organization for "clinging to old ideas" (or something similar) for so long. And the passionate adults are the backbone of the program. Them, and their dollars, are what allow the program for the boys to be carried on. I already dislike many things, including a "squishy" definition of religion, but I suspect an open embracing of atheism and homosexuality implicit in such a change would launch me into other efforts to accomplish my goals of reaching youth with something that can change them. Similar policies by the Girl Scouts kept us from getting our two daughters involved with their program. Brad Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 "What percentage of conservative parents have their children joining BSA? From what I see it is not the majority. I just don't know how you can't at least give it a try." Sctmom, Who knows what the politics are of the majority of Scouts and Scouters? It's not important. You know, even liberals describe themselves as "God loving, God fearing". The point is not that the majority are conservatives, or even that the majority would leave. The point is - BSA would lose far more Scouts and Scouters than such a policy change could possibly bring into its organization. Furthermore, once you open those two doors (homosexuals and atheists), BSA's descent down the slippery slope would be quite rapid. Fact is, many including myself would say such a policy change would put them darn near the bottom of the hill. On a more personal note, I will never allow my son to tent with a self-professed homosexual. This idea is ludicrous. Of course, I'm sure many will argue that he doesn't have to tent with a homosexual. How many homosexual boys are going to stand up and admit their orientation? And if they don't, what do we do then? When an incident occurs in a tent between one of these boys, do we write it off as "youthful indiscretion"? What would you tell the boy that was molested (or seduced, if that agrees with your sensibilities more)? You can have your son "give it a try", but I pray you don't. As for the atheists, while I could deal with this situation easier, I would still object. My family joined Scouting because of it faith based values, not despite of them. Why would BSA want to drive away a large segment of its membership to pacify a group that doesn't even appreciate the program for what it is? Brad - Ditto on your statement concerning the Girl Scouts. Weekender, DD, Ed, Glenn, jmcquillan, Fscouter, andrews, and others - It does warm my heart to know that I am part of a large movement (hopefully the majority) in Scouting that still loves God and traditional values. We owe it to our children to keep up the good fight. Weekender, stay up on that ladder and keep it coming. Amen. Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 If and I think this is a big IF, the BSA changes their policy to admit homosexuals & atheists, the BSA will not be long for this world. I for one would not stick around. I couldn't support a group that has beliefs that are completely against what I believe. It is good to see & hear that the majority involved in the BSA feel the way I do. If homosexuals & atheists want to be part of a scouting group, why don't they start theit own! Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Dedicated Dad 10 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 "bumpedy bump"??? In forum or Bulliten Board speak it serves to bump a post to the top of the thread and as you so astutely pointed out it also serves to affirm the posters post. Bumpedy would define the degree/magnitude aspect of said affirmation as in the alarming way things can go in the night. (we seem to be cut from the same cloth). In particular, at the junction of the very first warp and weft. There are very few of us here. It does warm my heart to know that I am part of a large movement (hopefully the majority) in Scouting that still loves God and traditional values.As far as Im concerned, outside of Organized Religion, this is the last stand for traditional values and Im not willing to let it go gentle into that good night. Link to post Share on other sites
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