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John-in-KC

Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

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"What that language means to a reasonable interpreter is that the project is supposed to be done for a non-Scouting entity."

 

Define "reasonable interpreter? Do you mean how you interpret it?

 

If so, then why are both statements in the rules, and why doi they appear in separate and unassociated paragraphs? A "reasonable interpretation" would be that they are separate thoughts and separate rules.

 

The Eagle service project is not a Troop, Crew, or Ship project, nor is it a council, regional or naional office project. Therefore, it is done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

As a separate issue, the project may not benefit scouting or be done on BSA owned property.

 

As such the BSA is not liable for any injuries or property damages related to the project. The legal responsibility for project is on the benefitting organization and not any unit or level of the BSA.

 

A Scout unit that volunteers to help with the poroject as a troop activity would be covered by their regular BSA accident and liability insurance BUT ONLY for the members of that unit that participated. That protection does not extrend to any person or property related to the project, including the candidte. Those other parties would be under the coverage of the benfitting organization and or property owner.

 

Why? Because the project is done "outside the sphere of Scouting".

 

I have offered you the exact passages and references from BSA policies. So far you have only offered personal opinion. Can you show any official policies or rules of the BSA that counter these policies. Otherwise you will have to accept that the BSA means what they have said.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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But Bob, you haven't begun to show that BSA has "said" that boys can't wear uniforms to perform Eagle Projects. As I've tried to explain, you've extrapolated that idea from statements that have nothing to do with uniforming. The insurance point is also a red herring (clearly, if BSA thought that it would be subjected to additional liability if boys wore uniforms to Eagle projects, the prohibition would be explicit). I would really hate for a boy to read this thread and think that he can't wear his uniform while replacing flags on graves, or presenting his final project to the benefiting organization. While you're free to promote whatever contorted interpretation of BSA rules you like, when you clain that BSA has clearly prohibited boys from wearing uniforms to do Eagle project work, that's just misinformation.

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Wow, lots of bad info here.

 

"Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. The project is formulated, planned and generally carried out by scouts (but does not have to be). It has nothing to do with uniforming and liability.

 

" A Scout unit that volunteers to help with the poroject as a troop activity would be covered by their regular BSA accident and liability insurance BUT ONLY for the members of that unit that participated. That protection does not extrend to any person or property related to the project, including the candidte. Those other parties would be under the coverage of the benfitting organization and or property owner."

 

This is not correct, the ESLP is planned and executed under the umbrella of the BSA, the local Council and the unit. Of course the candidate is covered under BSA insurance, provided the project is approved and the candidate and his leaders have filed the appropriate permits and received the appropriate permissions. To say that the candidate is not covered is very misleading.

 

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Our Scouts wear the uniform during all service projects, including Eagle projects. The exception being hot weather or dirty work, in those cases they can wear the troop T shirt. Most wear the troop T shirt under the uniform, just in case. We just had a discussion about this with several Eagle candidates just starting projects. It is my opinion that they represent the troop so they should wear some type of uniform to be recognized. I didnt consider legal or insurance issues, I just made the discussion based on what I thought was right.

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Note that the work plan, including planned safety precautions, is reviewed and approved by the BSA District. If somebody is injured because those plans were inadequate, BSA could certainly be sued--BSA itself, not just the chartering organization of the candidate. If BSA wanted to avoid liability and disclaim insurance coverage for Eagle Projects, they would handle the process in a completely different way.

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Given that there are any number of forum members that have claimed at one time or another to be BSA insurance experts, it's not likely anyone's opinion about insurance is going to be changed. Of course if any one of them could point to a BSA publication that says any activity is either "insured" or "not insured" there might be a chance.

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Riddle me this,

 

If the Eagle Leadership Service Project is completely "outside the sphere of Scouting," as Mr White argues, how can all the statements below be true?

 

Source: Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA Publication 33088, 2007 printing, page 27:

 

"The Scout must secure the approval of his unit leader, his unit committee..."

"and the benefactor of the project."

"The project must also be reviewed and approved by the district or council advancement committee or their designee to make sure that it meets the stated standards for Eagle Scout service projects before the project is started."

 

 

The Council Advancement folks, in most cases through District Advancement Committees, are a mandatory go/no-go step in Eagle Leadership Service Projects. If a project were truly "outside the sphere of Scouting," then approval of the benefactor would be the last step before project execution. That's not opinion, that is simple logic.

 

Further, the Eagle Board of Review has charge to accept a Candidate's work on his project as meeting the standards of who an Eagle is.

 

Ergo, Eagle Leadership Service Projects has at least some purview "within the sphere of Scouting."

 

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Fscouter, you're right about that. It would be nice if we could read something that really spelled it out. But this has only tangential relevance to this issue being discussed here, which is whether BSA prohibits the wearing of the uniform while performing an Eagle project. I think it would be news to BSA that there is any such prohibition, and it would also be news to them that the Eagle candidate doesn't represent the BSA Program through his Eagle project--BSA's own PR makes it clear that they don't share that view.

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Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. "

 

No it does not. That is a separate issue addressed in a separate BSA policy.

 

Reason this through.

Is the Eagle project done as a unit, district, or council event?

No. it is done as an independent and indiviudal activity for an ouside organization.

 

The Uniform policiy says that "The official uniforms are intended primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities as defined by the national Executive Board, and their use may be approved by the local council executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistent with the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

The Advancement policies state that the executive comment says "He does the project outside the sphere of scouting"

 

So you have the BSA saying that the uniform is to be worn for events consistent with the rules, and that the advancement rules say the project is done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

 

Can the scout wear his uniform or use the name of scouting when seeking donations for the project?

No.

 

Because the fundraising rules do not allow it. Specifically Rule 7. "Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors

of money for their chartered organizations, for the

local council, or in support of other organizations.

Adult and youth members shall not be permitted

to serve as solicitors of money in support of

personal or unit participation in local, national, or

international events.

 

And we have already established that the project is a personal event and done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

If you think about this IF the BSA allowed the uniform for the soliciting then they would allow it for the project itself and vice versa. However the rules are consistant for both. The rules of the BSA do not support wearing the uniform for soliciting funds or supplies, or during an individual event that is outside the sphere of scouting.

 

Can you show evidence of ANY BSA rule that says otherwise?

 

 

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Can you show evidence of ANY BSA rule that says otherwise?

 

You haven't shown any evidence that says it is! All you have done, Bob, is string together a bunch of rules from different BSA forms & policies & determined a Scout isn't allowed to wear his uniform during an ELSP.

 

We all agree the BSA is not to get the benefit of the project. That is to be "outside the sphere of Scouting." That in no way means an ESLP is not a BSA project. It is!

 

OK just for giggles, lets say an ELSP isn't a BSA project. Then all the uniform guidelines you have quoted, Bob, don't apply. This isn't a BSA event! You can't claim it isn't a BSA event then try to apply BSA rules to it! That's like driving in Pennsylvania & being pulled over for exceeding the speed limit in Ohio!

 

Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. "

 

No it does not. That is a separate issue addressed in a separate BSA policy.

 

And which policy would that be?

 

Would someone please call National & get a definitive answer about this so we can all get some sleep!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

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"Outside the Sphere of Scouting" means that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the local council, the unit...that's it. " No it does not. That is a separate issue addressed in a separate BSA policy.

Yes, I'm afraid it does.  You are putting together bits and pieces of several rules and guidelines in order to make a rule that doesn't exist.  You're adding additional requirements and burden on the backs of the scouts you serve.

Reason this through. Is the Eagle project done as a unit, district, or council event? No. it is done as an independent and indiviudal activity for an ouside organization.

Hence the statement "outside the sphere of scouting" That's all it means, no more no less.

The Uniform policiy says that "The official uniforms are intended primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities as defined by the national Executive Board, and their use may be approved by the local council executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistent with the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

With this argument, you're saying that advancement is not considered a Scout activity?  Seems a bit wrong to me.  The ESLP is indeed a requirerment for advancement, and well within the sphere of Scouting.  The actual requirement states that "...while a life scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religeous institution, school, or your community. The project idea must be approved by your Scoutmaster, and Committee, and by the Council or District before you start.  You must use the Eagle Scotu Leadership Service Project Workbook, No. 18-927, in meeting the requirement"

The ESLP Workbook further states about this requirement that "(the project will benefit an organization other than the BSA)"

Nowhere does it say that it's not a scout activity, nowhere in the Scout Handbook, the ESLP Workbook, or the Eagle application does it state that the scout cannot wear his uniform while performing his project. 

Bob, you've not given any citation or documentation that is definative, only supposition, extrapolation and guesswork.  It's not adding up, and no matter how many times you post the same stuff, you're not going to make the case for your argument. 

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Well, lets see where we are now. The top contenders in the battle are showing little sign of fatigue. For a while it looked like there might be a truce, but Hunt jumped back in with a flurry of punches. Bob was waiting for him and came back strong blow for blow. Attracted by the smell of Bobs blood, Ed jumps right back in the middle of the melee with his tried and true quote and punch style; glancing blows but mightily annoying.

 

Who the ultimate victor will be is anyones guess. Right now the raw score is Bob on top with 22 posts, Ed not far behind with 16, Hunt trying to catch up with 7, with John-in-KC falling further back with 7. Plus a host of also-rans.

 

Any bets on who will make the final post?

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While many threads simply run out of things to talk about, the last post is not final as they can be added to at any time.

 

In the only threads I have seen with a "final" post it always belonged to a moderator. Since no one has broken any rules at this point I would hope the moderators would not stop a poster or a thread simply because they have no personal interest in it.

 

 

Kb6jra

You said I have ADDED a requirement. What requirement would that be?

 

You suggest that any requirement work a scout does automatically makes it a scouting activity. Where did you get such an idea?

 

If a Scout does his excercises toward his First Class fitness requirement in his PE class are you suggesting that it now becomes a scout activity and that he should be in uniform, and the BSA should be supplying the accident insurance for the class participants and liability protection for the school?

 

OR is he fulfilling the requirememt "outside the sphere of scouting"?

 

When you read the Advancement policies and procedures manual you will see that quite clearly this is a separate issue from WHO the project can benefit.

 

 

 

 

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I don't really see this as a fight. I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but because this is a public forum, I think it's important that scouts and scouters who might read it get accurate information. In this case, there simply is no published rule that scouts may not wear their uniforms while performing Eagle projects. Rather, BSA has published materials actually depicting scouts doing this. Certainly BSA points to Eagle projects as a major part of the BSA program, and often reprints articles and press releases about projects. All there is is the opinion of one or two people, based on a misreading of BSA materials, that this is somehow forbidden. As I said before, it would be really sad if a boy read this and wrongly believed that he had violated some rule by wearing his uniform to perform his project. It just isn't so.

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As I said before, it would be really sad if a boy read this and wrongly believed that he had violated some rule by wearing his uniform to perform his project. It just isn't so.

 

This is exactly my feeling as well.  I believe many adults come here as a sort of online commisioner's corner to get answers.  They don't necessarily post, but they believe what they read.  I personally use a lot of the info I get here in the jobs I've got in Scouting.  I think we forum users have a responsibility to post facts when we "quote" regulations and rules.

 

I truely believe that misrepresenting something of this nature is a diservice to our members.  Nothing personal, just my feelings on the issue.

BobWhite, you're interpretation of this rule is unsupportable, and unless National is wrong as well in all of thier printed and illustrated material (and I seriously doubt they'd allow a misrepresentation of this caliber to continue), then I would advise you to rethink your position, or atleast concede that the 99% of us on this forum that hold to one interpretation of the BSA requirements may be right without admitting that you're wrong.  It would be the honorable thing to do at this point. 

And yes, I've been to training...I give the training, and nowhere does the current course syllabi for any training dictate, hint or even indicate that an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project is NOT a scouting activity or that an Eagle Candidate may not wear his uniform during any work performed for an ESLP. 

And I think FScouter is correct, this will be my last jab at the matter. 

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