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John-in-KC

Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

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Schiff

While it is an interesting theory it does not stand up to evaluation. If you read the Advancement Policies and Procedures it is clear that these are two distinct and separate issues. They do not even appear in the same paragraph. In fact, they are not even in adjoining paragraphs. The statement regarding the project being done outside the sphere of scouting is a stand alone paragraph.

 

Two paragraphs later the topic of who can benefit from the project is raised. It is in this context that the BSA emphasizes that the project is done for others in the community and not to benefit scouting or BSA owned property.

 

In between these two separate issues the manual explains how the candidate's leadership is to be shown.

 

If the two topics were related there would be no need to emphasize the sphere of scouting, the BSA could have only explained that the project could not benefit scouting or be on BSA owned property.

 

There is a purpose and separate meaning to the rule "He does the project outside the sphere of scouting"

 

The two rules appear separately because they are separate rules.

 

As with most conspiracy theories this one does not hold up to the existing facts.

 

 

 

 

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Bob,

 

If an Eagle Service project is "outside the sphere of Scouting" then a Unit Money Earning form isn't necessary. And if the form isn't necessary, then the rules & regs that guide the form don't apply.

 

And the quote from clause 6 states the primary use of the uniforms, not the only use. Primary doesn't equal only. That's your interpretation.

 

As stated in the Boy Scout Handbook: While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than the BSA.) The project plan must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader (Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, Venturing crew Advisor), unit committee, and by the council or district advancement committee before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, No. 18-927E, or this online equivalent, in meeting this requirement.

 

Even though the project is done for an organization other than the BSA, that doesn't mean the project is outside the sphere of Scouting. To be an Eagle Service project, the one completing it MUST be a Scout! The person on the front of the workbook is in uniform!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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ACP&P, page 27:

 

"Service to others is important. Work involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable for an Eagle Scout service project. The service project also may not be performed for a business, or be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser."

 

That to me says you're doing the project for a church, a school, a parks department, a hospital, and other such activities, BUT NOT FOR your Council, its properties, or your own unit. Scouting may not get the benefit of the labor.

 

"The Scout must secure the approval of his unit leader, his unit committee..." That to me says Scouting has a share in approval level control of the project "and the benefactor of the project." It's not quite a BFO that the supported agency buys into what the young man wants to do. "The project mus also be review and approved by the district or council advancement committee or their designee to make sure that it meets the stated standards for Eagle Scout service projects before the project is started." Again, Scouting (and in this case Scouting with a capital S) has approval authority.

 

Here's my read: The project benefits an agency outside of Scouting. BSA has control over the approval process (ACP&P). BSA will take credit for the service performed (www.goodturnforamerica.org, see BSA Pub 02-727,says:

Record an Eagle Scout Project

You will need to have the Eagle Scout project workbook handy.

Input the data requested:

The applicants full name

The project completion date

Number of Scouts working on the project

Number of non-Scout youth working on the project

Number of leaders working on the project

Number of other adults working on the project

Total hours worked on the project (number of people times the length of time they worked)

Cost of materials required to complete the project

Project category (selected from the dropdown box)

Type of group benefiting from the project

The specific group that benefited from the project)

 

Now, if BSA is taking credit for the hours, the complete severance of "outside the sphere of Scouting" BW advocates is not supported/supportable. From what I see of the official materials, horse sense tells me much of what happens is Scouting program, but the most important single piece ... who gets the benefit of the work is outside.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

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Oh please Ed, spare us. Give it up already. Get a LIFE man! And Bob, if you respond to Ed's prattling, you're just as irrelevant. It's embarrassing to listen to you two pick and poke at each other. Have you no sense of shame, or embarrassment, or respect for the sensitivities of 10,000 other forum members you choose to make audience to your infernal bickering? You're both as bad as two immature fourth-graders. Please do us all a favor and take 10-day timeout from the forums. Or does the moderator team need to meet and work out a plan for you?

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a tangential question to this discussion: Does BSA allow cub scouts to wear their uniforms to school? In my area, many of the younger cub scouts wear their uniform to school on the days that they have den meetings (whether or not they meet right after school, or later when the den leaders get home from work). School is definately outside the sphere of scouting.

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More often than not we as adults try to get the boys INTO their uniforms and now we have others trying to keep them out. Sorry, I have my boys wearing their uniforms as much as possible. Traveling to and even (any scout event) and traveling home. At the event they are to lead by example, that includes uniforms. Like I tell my boys, when I look around I like to see Scouts, not just boys, and it's the uniform that makes that all possible. The clothing makes the man.

 

Stosh

 

 

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"I advise my Eagle candidates that it is expected that the assisting scouts show up in uniform and go home in uniform, but while working on a messy project they can wear coveralls or other protective clothing. If the person is not a scout but a friend coming to help out they don't need to be in uniform of course, but if the worker wishes to receive scout credit for service project hours, they need to be in uniform. The Eagle candidate will stay in uniform throughout the day so that he can be readily found by the workers for further instruction and direction as needed. " Quoted from Stosh

 

 

 

Stosh,

 

I personally think this is take the leadership away from the Eagle candidate. He is really the only person who know what the type of clothing is need for his project. When I was working on my project I had six scouts and one non scout friend that came to my project.

I never said to wear or not to wear uniforms because it never crossed my mind, but I did say to wear something you can afford to get dirty. The scouts showed up in working clothing because they like I did not want to ruin their uniforms. The more I think about this I never worn my uniform to an Eagle Project because lets face it most EP are dirty work.

 

"More often than not we as adults try to get the boys INTO their uniforms and now we have others trying to keep them out. Sorry, I have my boys wearing their uniforms as much as possible. Traveling to and even (any scout event) and traveling home. At the event they are to lead by example, that includes uniforms. Like I tell my boys, when I look around I like to see Scouts, not just boys, and it's the uniform that makes that all possible. The clothing makes the man. " Quoted from Stosh

 

The uniforms have their place in scouting but they should not be wear during all activities.

Also The clothing does not make the man but his actions due.

 

Mark M

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It may be more beneficial to refer to all the comments made by an individual rather than taking bits and pieces out of context.

 

Wearing a uniform to/from and event will not soil the uniform no matter what the activity may be. I can in fact go to a pool party wearing my uniform, change into swim wear, dry off afterwards and put my uniform back on to go home. All this and never get my uniform wet.

 

I find very few Eagle scouts supervising, directing, inspecting, instructing etc. during the course of his project that would get his uniform all that soiled. Now if he's going to pitch in and do the work rather than lead and supervise, then maybe he ought to change clothing and then rethink his leadership style.

 

And as far as the clothing making the man vs. his actions make the man, I hope the man coming down the street with a gun in his hand some dark night has a police uniform on or I'm in a lot of trouble. Clothing, especially a uniform gives instant recognition and assumptions about the person that would not be evident otherwise. I stand by my comments. Without a moment's pause if I needed help and there were two young men standing about, one in a Scout uniform and one not, I will always ask the Scout first.

 

Stosh

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"Hunt the BSA advancement policies amd procedures says that the project is doen "outside the sphere of scouting". Can you think of of why you would wear the uniform when working at a job that was outside of the scouting program?"

 

I don't know about a job, but I can certainly understand why one might wear the uniform while carrying out a Boy Scout Eagle Project, that was planned and approved according to BSA requirements. Bob, your interpretation is an extrapolation from language that doesn't really have anything to do with uniforming, and it's really not required by the language. Surely, if BSA really didn't think boys should wear uniforms while doing Eagle Project work, this point would be mentioned in the many pages of information about Eagle Projects they have published? I mean, your interpretation is, apparently, that uniform wear is actually forbidden while doing Eagle work. Is that right? And you feel that this prohibition is sufficiently stated in language that describes the Eagle Project as being for the benefit of a non-Scouting organization? In my opinion, your interpretation, although not impossible, is quite far-fetched, and would, I believe, be quite surprising to the vast majority of Scouters.

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You suggest that what I wrote was based on a single statement by the BSAa in the Advancement policies, it was not. As I have now posted frequently in this thread it is based on other evidence as well. Specifically the Advancement polices, the uniform regulations, and the money eraning regulations (since in many projects the candiate chooses to seek donations of goods or money to support the project.

 

Since the executive board says VERY SPECIFICALLY that the project is outside the sphere of scouting, no personal opinion of "feeling" of a local volunteer, unit, or council can alter that without specific permission from the national executive board.

 

 

 

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But Bob, your interpretation is really pieced together and extrapolated from all those things. But we have reams of info about how to do Eagle Projects, and not one word, as far as I know, stating that it is forbidden to wear the uniform while doing this work. You're putting a lot of emphasis on the idea that the Project is "outside the sphere of Scouting." What that language means to a reasonable interpreter is that the project is supposed to be done for a non-Scouting entity. There is no reason to assume that it means that the project must somehow be totally divorced from Scouting to the extent that the uniform is forbidden. While you may think that you have quoted a definite rule on this, you haven't. What you've done is set out your interpretation of how some rules should be extrapolated to answer this question. You are certainly entitled to your interpretation, unless and until BSA contradicts it. But your interpretation is not definitive, and I, for one, don't even find it to be persuasive.

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If no funds or materials are solicited for the project, the Unit Money Earning application doesn't apply. And does it apply anyways? This is a form that is to be completed by the unit when fund raising. All the questions refer to the unit, not the individual. And, as stated by many, an ELSP is not a unit project. So, based on that, the form doesn't apply making the rules & regs that guide the form moot to this discussion.

 

Yes the ELSP is not to benefit the BSA, but to benefit an outside organization. One can do an Eagle project that will benefit their chartering organization.

 

All the requirements and approvals are from within the BSA making ELSP a BSA project. A Royal Ranger can't earn this award, only a youth member of the BSA can.

 

There is nothing that states the Scout can or can't wear his uniform while completing the ELSP. That leaves it up to the Scout to decide.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

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I'll just add that if you search "Eagle Project" on www.scouting.org, the first thing that comes up is an article with a picture showing a boy working on his project in uniform. Also, Csatari's 1978 painting "Eagle Service Project" shows boys rushing off to do the project in uniform; the leading boy is rolling up his uniform sleeves.

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