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mdsummer45

Eagle Problems....BIG

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mdsummer45,

 

I am sorry that your son and your family is having to go through this. Several people have mentioned Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures guide book. I have an electronic copy, and below are a few sections that pertain to your situation, from the 2008 printing.

 

"The requirement for advancement is that the Scout participates in a Scoutmaster conference, not that he passes the onference. When advancement is going to be deferred, the Scout should not come to the Scoutmaster conference thinking that everything is OK and then be surprised that his advancement is deferred. He should have had plenty of warning and guidance prior to the Scoutmaster conference.

 

This is not a time to shut the door on advancement, but rather to work with the Scout to create goals that will allow him to succeed. However, even after a negative Scoutmaster conference for the ranks of Tenderfoot to Life, if the Scout desires a board of review, he should be granted his request." Pages 25-26

 

"When a Scout has completed all requirements for a rank advancement, including the Scoutmaster conference, he may not be denied a board of review" Page 30

 

"It is imperative that all requirements for the Eagle Scout rank except the board of review be completed prior to the candidates 18th birthday. When all requirements except the board of review for the rank of Eagle, including the service project and Scoutmaster conference, have been completed, an Eagle Scout Rank Application must be filled out and sent to the council service center promptly." Page 31

 

"There are two sets of circumstances in which a Scout or his parent(s) or guardian(s), acting on his behalf, may appeal a decision.

 

The first situation occurs when a unit leader or unit committee does not recommend a Scout for a board of review, or refuses to sign the Eagle Scout application. In such cases, the Scout or his parent(s) or guardian(s) may appeal the decision to the committee responsible for advancement at the next level, as described below. The committee hearing the appeal shall then grant the Scout a board of review and appoint its members. In such cases, the committee hearing the appeal shall decide to grant or not to grant a board of review.

---

All appeals, under any circumstances, shall initially be directed to the next highest level. If the decision leading to the appeal occurred at the unit level, the appeal shall be directed to the district committee responsible for advancement. If the decision leading to the appeal occurred at the district level (i.e., an Eagle Scout board of review convened by the district), the appeal shall be directed to the council committee responsible for advancement. A decision at either level finding in favor of the Scout shall be final. Units have no right of appeal of a decision.

 

If the initial committee hearing the appeal does not find in favor of the Scout, he or his parent(s) or guardian(s) may appeal that decision to the next highest level. If the initial appeal was made at the district level, the next highest level is the council advancement committee. If the initial decision was made at the council level, or if the council advancement committee upheld the unfavorable finding of the district advancement committee, the Scout or his parent(s) or guardian(s) may appeal to the national Boy Scout Committee. All requests for appeal shall be made in writing, signed by the Scout and/or his parent(s) or guardian(s), and shall set forth in detail the reasons for requesting an appeal.

 

Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained. Confrontations between opposing parties must be avoided. The appeal review is not a second board of review and thus a unanimous decision is not required. A decision may be reached by majority vote. A written report setting out all details of the appeal and the reasons for the committees decision shall be prepared and forwarded to the council Scout executive. A copy shall be furnished to the Scout bringing the appeal." Page 33

 

John-in-KC, I do not see anywhere that it mentions the CC signing for the SM, but it does mention that all appeals be "directed to the next highest level." (page 33). With that statement, I can see appealing a scoutmaster decision to the CC appropriate.

 

(This message has been edited by click23)

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From ACP&P:

 

"If the decision leading to the appeal occurred at the unit level, the appeal shall be directed to the district committee responsible for advancement."

 

There are four levels listed: unit, district, council, national.

 

A signature refusal of the Scoutmaster or Committee Chairman would be a "decision leading to the appeal" at the unit level. Therefore an appeal would be made to the district.

 

Unit committees have Board of Reviews. They do not do appeals.

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It amazes me how many people don't get what scouting program is really about. Maybe ask this SM how he lives the oath and law is his daily life and what kind of example he's setting.

 

Don't waste too much time, contact your DE. If you don't get any satisfaction from him/her, contact nation. The reality is that Scouters have a "good 'ol boy" network and likely will not step on each others toes so you may need to talk with someone in power that doesn't have a relationship with this leader.

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Thanks click :)

 

Just as a note: If at any point in the appeal process, the rank is awarded, the process is instantly complete. Units have no right of appeal. Those words are also in ACP&P.

 

Department of Rhetorical Questions:

All this could have been solved with some quiet "in the field" SM conferences about the incident and a "Gee, I'm sorry Mr Brown." Gotta wonder why the SM has let it fester...????

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OK thanks for the clarification on what, exactly, can be appealed. mdsummer, keep us posted, would you? Lots of people here are rooting for your son.

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mdsummer,

 

I won't go into any additional advice. You've received plenty of good advice and seem to be following it. I just want to add some words of encouragement. Based on what you've told us, if your son follows the appeals process, I am quite confident he will prevail at some point based on what little I know of the process. I am aware of two appeals from our district that were eventually approved at the national level and involved issues far more serious than what your've described.

SA

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A signature refusal of the Scoutmaster or Committee Chairman would be a "decision leading to the appeal" at the unit level. Therefore an appeal would be made to the district.

 

Nah, this gets spelled out elsewhere. SM refusal gets appealed to the unit committee. And that's just polite anyways, eh?

 

That's necessary in the areas where EBORs are held at the unit level, of course. If the EBOR's are held at the district level, then you're right, that's where it will be resolved. In that case, though, it makes a difference if the unit committee endorses the application even if the SM does not. Those are separate endorsements, eh? If the committee approves, the chair should sign on behalf of the committee, he/she should not sign for the Scoutmaster.

 

So for this lad, whether EBORs are held at the unit or district level in his area, first step is the unit committee.

 

Beavah

 

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From ACC&P - This triggers the appeal:

 

"There are two sets of circumstances in which a Scout or his parent(s) or guardian(s), acting on his behalf, may appeal a decision.

 

The first situation occurs when a unit leader or unit committee does not recommend a Scout for a board of review, or refuses to sign the Eagle Scout application. In such cases, the Scout or his parent(s) or guardian(s) may appeal the decision to the committee responsible for advancement at the next level, as described below."

 

Continuing on...

 

"If the decision leading to the appeal occurred at the unit level, the appeal shall be directed to the district committee responsible for advancement."

 

It does not list a Scoutmaster level or a Unit Committee level. It only says Unit level

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Thank you again for all of your comments, advice, guidance and support. My son just told me the SM emailed him and told my son that he would give my son a copy of the letter at the troop committee meeting because he was traveling all week. I said...WHAT!!!!! no way... you need to have that letter before you step one foot into that mtg. My son just sent off this email:

 

Mr SM

 

Thank you for your email today. I did not realize that when you said in your email that you were traveling today (Tuesday) that you meant that you were travel all week. My mistake. Thank you for talking with me Monday night regarding scheduling an eagle scoutmaster conference with you. It is my understanding that at this time you continue to feel that you can not sign off on the following Eagle Scout Rank Requirements for me:

 

#2 Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life

 

#6 Take part in a scoutmaster conference

 

So that I may have a clearer understanding of your position, I am requesting a written statement from you listing the reasons that you feel that you can not sign off on these requirements. I would like to have this statement prior to the troop committee meeting so that I can address all of your concerns in a thoughtful manner.

 

You also suggested that I contact the Troop Committee Chairman, Mr. X, and request a special troop committee meeting so that I can present myself to them. I have taken your advice and I emailed Mr.X Monday night, March 30, 2009 requesting such a meeting.

 

I will be sending a copy of this email to Mr Y--Troop Advancement Chairman; Mr Z --Troop Eagle Advisor and Mr X--Troop Committee Chairman.

 

As you know I will be turning 18 on May 16, 2009. I look forward to your reply at your earliest convenience.

 

 

 

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My son has a question he would like me to put out there:

 

He was talking with his High School counselor today(as I mentioned earlier my son does a lot of computer work for the school) and was telling him about everything that is going on in his scouting life. My son was just asking for suggestions on how best to approach things at the troop committee meeting when his counselor said " Would it be possible for me to attend the meeting and speak on your behalf?"(my son said he never asked him to attend the counselor just up and volunteered) The counselor wants to attend the mtg or at the very least send a letter. My son did not know what to tell him. So the question is....is it permitted to have an outside person attend this committee meeting? is a letter permitted? Any thoughts???

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Hmmm. I think I like the idea of an outsider who thinks positively of your son at that meeting, especially a trained individual like a school counselor. I would let whoever is chairing the meeting (presumably the Committee Chair) know that this individual will be there (rather than asking permission). Maybe the day before if you're concerned about sabotage. There really aren't any rules about a meeting like this unless your troop does this regularly enough to have a policy.

 

Might help keep folks civil and honest, although hopefully they wouldn't gang up.

 

Vicki

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"So the question is....is it permitted to have an outside person attend this committee meeting? is a letter permitted? Any thoughts???"

 

You would have to ask your unit committee. It is their meeting. It is their rules. It is not any part of any formal advancement process.

 

I think it would be great if he were to come. Sounds like he would be a great advocate for your son.

 

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Wow, Mdsummer, I have just spent an hour reading this forum and your post on the other that was linked in an earlier posting. May I first say, "Congratulations and thank you for being a mom who is concerned but is willing to let her son work this through." I am extremely impressed. As an educator, let me tell you how much you have allowed your son to learn about people, about himself, and about a desire to see things through. Bravo!

 

As I have read your responses on both forums, one thing has struck me over and over. Your son has shown a tremendous amount of leadership skill in this whole ordeal - good for him!. He has shown an amazing level of maturity for a teenager in many situations where most would have flown off the handle by maintaining his cool with some truly hard-headed individuals - good for him! He has demonstrated a loyalty to the Scout Oath and Law that those who should be modelling it for him are lacking - good for him! He has shown more Scout Spirit in his little finger than most of his leaders seem to have in their entire bodies - good for him! Were I still in the Summer Camp Administration game, your son is one I would be after to sign a staff contract.

 

Wish him well and express my hope that he will, one day, join the ranks of Eagle Scout that many of us on this forum share. He strikes me, on the basis of reading, as one who is truly deserving.

 

Wil

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Has your son completed his Eagle Scout Application yet?

 

Has he listed this counselor as one of his references?

 

Does your Council have the youth hand over a blank form so the reference can fill it out?

 

If yes to all these, there is no need for the counselor to be there. His reference will stand for itself.

 

So ... a question for you, Ms Summer: Where exactly is your son in doing:

- His Eagle Scout application? (As I write this, the link to the online app at NESA is DEAD...grr)

 

- Collecting his references?

 

- In other words, having all his work together to go to the EBOR?

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At this point my son has not completed his Eagle Rank Application. Should he just download one from the internet? Should my son just fill it out and at the end of the troop committee mtg ask for signatures (no matter the out come)? The Troop Eagle Advisor requested a list of name from my son and yes that person's name is on the list of references. The advisor told my son that he would mail out the necessary forms for the reference people to complete. So I guess my son is suppose to trust that the eagle advisor will send out those forms.

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