Scouters as communist weapons dealers

[Oak Tree 15]

I'd also say 'no' to Eamonn's question. I've known many, many leaders who would wink at socks, but would not allow boys to violate the life jacket rule. The rules were made by people, in order to achieve certain ends. Most adults have reached a point where they can apply their judgement to the rules and decide which rules are most important to follow, and which ones may not be absolutely necessary under the circumstances.

 

I had a friend who worked at a pizza delivery store. Their rule was that if the customer wasn't satisfied with the pizza, they didn't give refunds, they gave store credit - i.e. another pizza. Once they accidentally delivered a pizza that was the half-eaten staff pizza. The customer came back, was upset, and wanted his money back, and he wasn't going to take another pizza from this incompetent set of people. The store manager wouldn't give him his money back, and the customer flew into a rage. Should he have broken the rule and given the customer his money back?

 

Oak Tree

[Eamonn 61]

Hi Oak Tree,

You posted:

"Most adults have reached a point where they can apply their judgment to the rules and decide which rules are most important to follow, and which ones may not be absolutely necessary under the circumstances"

My question is where do they get the right or the authority to use their own judgment? And where does it start and where does it end?

This thread isn't about my socks,or about uniforms. I think it's about the big picture.

I really don't care if Bob White has or hasn't sinned. I know I have.

As I said earlier I at times am a little unsure how good a person I am. Am I good because it's the right thing to do? Or because I fear the consequences of being caught?

There are no uniform police or methods police. A unit leader may not make many friends but he or she can tell the District and the Council to take a hike and never come near the unit he or she serves again.

We however lead by example, so the consequences for us not following the guide lines, not following the rules are that the message the people we serve take home is that it is OK not to play this game by the rules or whatever you want to call them.

This is the price we pay when we allow people to override them.

I think that there is a very big difference between the Leader who says to a Scout "Yes I was in a hurry and forgot to put my belt on. I would forget my head if it wasn't sewn on" And the Leader who says to a Scout" Yes I know it's wrong, but I do it anyway".

This to my mind comes back to a very simple matter of doing what is right or doing what is wrong.

Eamonn.

[Oak Tree 15]

Hi Eamonn,

 

I'll give you my answer, which you probably won't like. Where do they get the right or authority? They get it from being free agents in the universe. We've been endowed by our Creator with the ability to make judgements. That's where it starts...where does it end? I'd say it ends with the underlying principles - thou shalt not harm a child nor allow him to be harmed.

 

I suspect most adults have had to have this discussion with their kids, at least with respect to the speed limit laws. It seems a very small minority of cars actually travel at that limit, and most people can't reasonably claim to routinely not notice that they're actually exceeding the limit. So what do I tell my kids? I tell them that the legislature passed a speed limit, even knowing that people wouldn't follow it. The police actually seem to enforce a higher limit, at a speed that they judge to be unsafe. I try to travel at the speed of prevailing traffic, a speed I judge to be safe, which also generally seems to be within the police's definition.

 

Oak Tree

[bbng 10]

Oak Tree, I'm not sure if you're a leader or not, but I am both parent and leader. As a parent, I want my children to understand that they are part of a membership organization, and therefore, they either follow its rules, or if they decide they don't agree with them (whether it's in respect to uniforms, advancement, or any other method), then they are free to leave the organization. As for the speed limit, my children don't understand why I bother to follow it. They say, "but look how fast everyone else is going". My reply? I have a driver's license, it is a privilege that may be revoked if I do not handle it responsibly, and part of that is to follow the laws regardless of what others do. If the police stop me for speeding, do I truly have the right to say, "but officer, you were going fast" or "but all the other cars were going fast" or "I know that the limit isn't reasonable and no one is expected to actually follow it". The very idea of that doesn't sit well with me; to try to tell my children that it's somehow ok doesn't work for me.

 

Now clearly there are those that disagree with me. That's fine by me, but I will not change my convictions that any time I have a particular privilege (BSA registration, driver's license--neither is something owed to me as I understand them) I may use it however I see fit.

 

Forgetting a particular pair of socks or belt? No, it's not a big deal, and it will happen to everyone. A pattern of deliberately choosing what to follow and what to disregard, particularly as a parent and as a leader, that is disturbing to me. That will undermine my trust in a leader, and it is certainly what I do my best to avoid so that I'll not cause others to lose their trust in me.

[johndaigler 10]

Eamonn,

 

"This to my mind comes back to a very simple matter of doing what is right or doing what is wrong."

 

With gobs of respect . . .

 

Is it possible that there are bad rules that ought to be ignored or fought? Is obedience the only Correct behavior?

 

I'm not arguing on behalf of people who don't like to be inconvenienced by rules, or who don't think the uniform is cool enough; but I think, if we tried, we could come up with a "rule" or two that we think ought to be changed. Given the BSA organizational structure, I'm not sure many Scouters would know how to get a rule changed - or have much trust that their opinion would count for much. I'm not looking to complain about the National structure (at least not in this thread. ), but to point out that there are a few "rules" that I believe are better "not followed".

 

I think you're saying I should swallow my judgement and just follow the rule. Isn't my judgement of the situation my truest guide for my own Best behavior?

 

If I see a rule that, IMHO, adversely affects the boys or the program, shouldn't I act on that? It's true, if we let everyone make such judgements some are going to be wrong, and those Scouters' will probably act wrongly. There may be some who abuse the opportunity and make choices based on convenience or fashion sense rather than on good honest evaluation of the situation. But, always follow the rules? No matter what? Hmmmmmmmm . . .

 

At the moment, I'm thinking I value thinking more than I value blind adherence to rules. We're all about teaching young men to be able to make "ethical decisions" - but if the answer is "follow the rules", I think we've just made ourselves obsolete. Not to be too glib, but I don't think we really want "follow the rules" to always be the right answer. The rules aren't always created for the right reasons - or for reasons that are right 95 years after they were originally created. I'd hate to take it all for granted. I think, as Scouters, our judgements can help to keep the program strong for the next 95 years. I'm sure there are other Powells, Setons, Wests, Beards, Hillcourts, et al, out there today. If all they do is follow the rules, will they ever be the Heroes that are needed for the next generation of Scouts?

 

Do you really mean it's just as simple as right or wrong? If that's true, I think it would sadden me.

 

jd

[madkins007 10]

Packsaddle said "I really try to wear my uniform correctly. And yet, there is a nagging thought in mind at all times - if the uniform Nazis put me under the 'microscope', they'd probably find something wrong."

 

I can attest to that. During training, our own local uniform Nazi would proudly display their uniform, and I usually had no problem finding a flaw of some sort in it. Some of the pictures of the Chief Exec. have shown him in a uniform that if not technically incorrect was at least in a grey area. Many of the pictures in Scouter magazine show professional Scouters with uniform errors- usually pretty minor.

 

Do the flaws bother me? Not as long as the uniform looks good and its no big deal. I try to keep mine right, but I'm probably wrong with something as well. I try REAL HARD to not be a uniform cop in the real world!

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Woukd asking you all not to use the term Nazi in any form be over the top?

[Eamonn 61]

Good Morning and Happy Memorial Day,

JD, many thanks for seeing this thread for what it is about, even if at present we are not in total agreement.

Most Scouts have a copy of the Boy Scout Handbook,page 50 deals with A Scout is obedient:

A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.

Can we in good faith expect our Scouts to do this when we aren't?

Eamonn.

 

[johndaigler 10]

Fair enough, E., though I would counter with that section's final paragraph:

 

Obeidance must be guided by good judgement. If someone tells you to cheat, steal or do something you know is wrong, you must say no. Trust your own beliefs and obey your conscience when you know you are right.

 

But let's jump the grey area to get some learnin' . . .

 

What's the process for changing "rules" within BSA?

 

I should follow the "bad" rule while trying to get it changed?

 

Is there a point where, after I've tried to get changes made, that I rightfully turn to "alternative methods"?

 

How should we handle the situation when the local "rule" differs from the National "rule"?

 

jd

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[Eamonn 61]

Hi JD or do you prefer John,

I somehow knew when I pulled out my copy of the Handbook that the part you quoted was coming right back at me.

I don't think that we want to waste time and energy playing word games. I'm almost sure that will pop up later.

I'm not going to back into history and go on about how as a Nation America and Americans are a disobedient group. No one wants to hear that from a Brit, who loves the USA.

To be very honest I have never tried to have a rule changed within the BSA.

I feel sure that there isn't a simple form that one can just fill in the details and just mail it to the "Complaints Department".

Others more knowledgeable than I have seen in Handbooks and BSA publications, things that they thought were wrong and things that were wrong. They have brought this to the attention of the BSA, by calling the people who are in charge of that area or by writing to the National Office or the Magazines. In most cases they have got some sort of an answer.

We have in our Council several people who serve on National Advisory Committees as well as people who serve at the Area and Regional level.

If a volunteer in the District that I serve came to me with a rule that needed to be changed (So far no one ever has.) I rightly or wrongly would decide if the rule was a bad rule or not and if it was I would try and find out who the right person or the right committee was to bring it too. I suppose each and every person I brought it to would decide if it was worthy of taking on or pursuing.

While it wasn't a rule, I was very unhappy about something that was happening in our Council. I thought it wasn't right and felt it was bypassing our Executive Board, by being pushed through an Executive Committee. Not being one to ever suffer in silence. I voiced my concerns to the Scout Executive. He either didn't see things my way or choose not to.

I worked on members of the Executive Committee and did win a couple of them over. But not enough. I called the Area President, who is a pal of mine. He informed me that it was his understanding that what the Council wanted to do was in line with what National wanted. I called a friend of mine in the National Office, he confirmed what the Area President had said. I voiced my case at a Executive Board meeting, several things were changed, but not enough to make Eamonn a happy little Eamonn.

I had done what I could, gone as far as I could and lost.

The ball was now back in my court. I had to decide if this was a big enough thing and if I really felt strongly enough about this, that I would quit, leave this organization that I love or move on. I of course choose to stay and not allow this and the fact that I hadn't won to prevent me from doing what I love doing.

This all had to do with membership and a school and I have now seen happen what I thought would happen and being the nice lovable chap that I am I haven't said I told you so to anyone.

As to the National rule and the local rule.

I again don't ever remember dealing with such a case.

At times the local guys (Me??) may interpret something differently than what National is trying to say. We as a Council and in different committees have at times had long and heated discussions about what the "Book" is really saying. Cub Scout camping was an area that for a while led to a lot of misinformation and a unclear council understanding. Most times these can be cleared up by going to the people who really know. Far to often people will go to a DE. Our Council is fortunate enough to have a SE who if he doesn't know will say so and then go and ask the people who do. Of course we don't always get the answer that we would like or want to hear.

This is a very large Organization, change can seem to be very slow. What might seem like a bad idea or bad rule in your area or your community might work and be of benefit elsewhere.What might be acceptable to one Chartering Organization, might be unacceptable to another. Civil disobediences are common in this country, but if we are Boy Scout Leaders I really think we have go by what the Scout Law states and lead by example.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle 753]

OGE, I respect your request regarding the use of the term, 'Nazi'. It was an attempt at humor, borrowed from the Seinfeld 'Soup Nazi' idea. Guess it didn't work though.

 

This seems to be evolving into a discussion of how to dissent. I agree with johndaigler's request for the process of changing a rule. I may be in a minority opinion, but my experience is that the district and council pay little attention to my suggestions. I guess they are bad ideas, but an acknowledgement for a written letter would be nice.

 

For that matter, some of us have noticed that the pros themselves are also setting an example for us. And the example, at least in some limited way, seems to be 'local option' - in other words, we may use our best judgement. Like I wrote before, I really try to follow the rules, even the uniform ones, but let's face it, personal judgement is the way it's going to be, given that we do have that ability.

 

Edited part: Oops, I was typing this in while eamonn's message was arriving in background. So now a conundrum: Do I speed read eamonn's message and change this one? I'll probably time out on the ability to edit while reading that lengthy tome so if I try to read it I won't be able to change this message. What to do, what to do?

Dave, my mind is going, I can feel it, I......can.....feeeeeelllllll...iiit. Daisy, daisy, give me your answer do...(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

The other day our unit had an outing at the lake. I was bringing the life jackets and I was running late, so I left off putting on my official Scout Socks so that I would not need to drive over the speed limit to arrive on time. As it worked out, everyone was wearing their lake shoes and no socks, so it all worked out just fine.

 

Had I known about the lake shoes, I would not have even worried about the socks but I had failed to pay attention when the discussion was held at the PLC. My real sin was not paying attention but I was unsure as to whom to ask forgiveness for a sin that actually never occurred since I was doing what was expected.

 

Had I been on time in the first place, then I would have worn my Scout Socks and been "out of uniform" making for a bad example. I would then have been guilty of simply not listening which was my sin in the first place but then it would have been noticeable.

 

I began to worry that while traveling to the event without my Scout Socks was also a violation because I really was out of uniform even though the uniform of the day was to be no socks. What might have occurred was that I could have been stopped for a traffic violation and a policeman would have found me out of uniform. The policeman might have been a former Scout and would have been disappointed to find me with the incorrect uniform.

 

Since I didn't pay attention, I had not worn my lake shoes. I had worn my good shoes, so into the water I went with them. Of course I got my good shoes wet and it ruined the inside cushion and later my wife got upset with me. Since she is not part of the BSA, I was not concerned with the outcome. I found out later that I had underestimated the importance of this last rule.

 

 

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[packsaddle 753]

I can feel your pain.

[Bob White 20]

Why were you even wearing a uniform for a water activiy, hardly appropriate apparel? Why were you leaving late when you had a responsibility that involved the safety of the scouts? Why did you continue to take part in an activity that you did not have the correct personal equipment for? Why did you not listen? Why wear you bringing the PFDs and not the Quartermaster?

 

If the police officer did pull you over it would have had nothing to do with your sockes whether you were wearing the right ones or not.

 

If this is really the story you want to use to validate behavior that you likely would not have accepted from a scout it would seem that you had far more barriers to setting a good example as a good scout leader than simply not wearing the correct socks.

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

 

FB,

Excellent!

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)