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Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15

What do I do with an adult that isn't a leader but continually interferes?

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The reason it isn't going in my head is because everyone else is telling me and the PLC to make a draft of rules nad then get the Committee to vote on them. But here's the problem with that. She's on the Committee! I have a set of rules drafted up which myself and the PLC will revise and look for any changes. I post the rules in my next post, so be ready.

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Rules and Regulations for Troop Committee

 

 

Troop Committee shall be made of eight additional active members other than the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters

 

Committee members must receive training and be registered with the BSA

 

All committee members must wear an official BSA uniform

 

Any nominations for replacement Committee members must be voted on prior to leave of current Committee member, and must have majority to become a inactive Committee member, then after being trained the inactive member can be voted on and then become an active Committee member and registered with BSA

 

 

 

Committee member may be put on watch if they show poor leadership or other unacceptable behavior, meaning that they come to Committee meetings, but can not vote or bring fourth a motion for four months

 

If they have been on watch in the last four months, and our put on watch again, you may be put on suspension, meaning you arent active in the Committee for four months

 

If you have been on suspension in the last 4 months, you can be expelled for one year

 

Also, you receive two expulsions in any of the years of membership to the Committee, you can never be on the Troop Committee again

 

 

 

Troop Committee members only can be chauffeur to and from BSA events

 

All chauffeurs must be known by all Committee members and by the Senior Patrol Leader

 

All Committee members are allowed to brings two guests per year and must be known head of time by all Committee members

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SPL, first of all, I want to commend you for the amount of thought and energy you have put into this issue and how to deal with it. It is obvious that you place great importance on making sure that your troop is run properly and specifically that you retain the ability to do your job as the top boy leader.

 

However,

 

First, as I and others have said, you were placed in an adult role, and now it appears that you are being placed there again. If any adult(s) in your troop suggested or asked that the PLC draft rules and regulations for the troop committee, they were wrong. It is really up to the Chartered Organization, and if delegated to the troop committee, the troop committee, to decide whether such rules are going to exist and what they are going to be. I think we'd all prefer to see you using your energy and enthusiasm to do YOUR job as Senior Patrol Leader. I think you need to tell your Scoutmaster, again if you have already, firmly but politely, that HE has to do what is necessary to "protect" the boys from improper interference. I don't think you have mentioned your own parents or what their role is or isn't in the troop in all this; maybe one of them could talk to the SM (NOT the woman involved) if you are uncomfortable doing so.

 

Second, as to your rules and regulations themselves: There is an old expression, trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer, or other variations on that theme. It seems to me that your rules are too detailed and if they are adopted by the committee, could well end up tying the committee's hands in doing its business. What if, for example, less than eight people are interested in being on the committee. Also, based on my experience in various organizations, I would predict that if these rules are presented to the committee, even if the committee adopts them, the chances that they will actually be enforced in all their detail is very small. What I have seen instead (and this is outside of Scouting) is that even when a group has adopted its own bylaws, after awhile (especially if new people have gotten involved), adherence to the bylaws begins to fade and eventually the bylaws are ignored. If someone forcefully insists that they be followed, the response is often to change the bylaws to follow what the new group is doing anyway. Here you will have a committee that did not even come up with its own bylaws at all, and I doubt that they are going to be fully obeyed for very long.

 

Third, in your first post you said this woman is not a leader. I think most of us took that to mean she is not a member of the committee. In your next-to-last post you say she is a member of the committee. Is she?

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First, I wasnt asked to make any rules for the committee, that was one of the suggestions from you guys on the fourm, and listen please, it WASNT my Scoutmasters fault, he was letting the ASM sit in so he could get a feel of how things ran in the troop. My mom is also on the committee as the troop secretary, and she was the one who went and notifed the SM of what was going on in the the PLC. The PLC had to be held inside the same building as everyone was sleeping in that night, and I had done told the other adults to listen incase she does start yelling because everyone knew the ASM wouldn't stop her.

 

Second, I know the rules wont be followed, but to stay alive long enough to force her to stay out. I never planed on the lasting, just to make her feel like she either needed to straighted up or leave. I know its not my place, but if she is interfering with me running my meetings, I'm gonna do wat I can to stop her from doing it again.

 

Third, she is a member of the committee, but is not a leader. I dont know if you guys consider being on the committee a leader, but we only do if you have an actual position within the council.

 

Sorry if anything said affends anyone.

 

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Just to help you understand how the membership works Senior_Patrol-Leader-T15, any adult volunteer registered with the BSA is refered to as a leader. All scouting registrations are through a council with the BSA. Being a registered unit leader does not give you a council position, only a unit position. The only exception being the Chartered Organization Representative. Any other unit volunteer would have to be dual registered in another District or Council level position to have a council position.

 

So bottom line, if the adult discussed in this thread is a BSA registered unit committee person then she is indeed considered a leader.

 

Bob White

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I'm getting the impression from SPLT15's posts that the troop is very small and very undertrained. Training is crucial to the success of any troop. The youth leaders don't seem to understand the adult registered leaders roles and vice-versa. Until I read that the woman in question was on the committee, I was going to say that she should be invited to the next training available for adult leaders as she obviously wants to be involved (her current methods of involving herself are unacceptable as we all agree). But now that you say she is on the committee that raises another question. Was she ever trained? I can see how in a small troop people want to "just volunteer" and be part of a committee but that's not how it works in Scouting. Training is what makes the scout wheels turn.

 

As was already mentioned, there are many more issues at stake here -most importantly 'youth protection'. If she was trained then she obviously needs a refresher course because she is not working for the good of the troop by causing all this commotion and Boy Scouts do not need to be exposed to this kind of behavior. She is distracting the scouts from their agenda and goals.

 

If she was not properly trained then she needs to be invited graciously (as you bite your tongue and maintain respect if you again are forced to deal with her) and preferrably by an adult leader to participate in a training. I also sense that the youth could probably benefit from a refresher JLT course. By training her (or refreshing her training) her misguided sense of being involved would be better channeled to the appropriate place.

 

At the risk of sounding like I am defending her (which I am not) I think that she and her family want to be involved as evidenced by their participation in scouting and their community (mayor is kind of a big deal wouldn't you say?) She wants to be on the committee, she wants to be at PLC meetings (even though she should not) and she wants to go on campouts. She needs to be taught by example by scouts and leaders who get it. She seems like the type of person to try anyone's patience but also seems like someone who desperately needs scoutings values to help her grow. Her energy is high and inappropriatley placed but with the right training and guidance .... who knows? Kicking her out or forcing her out is probably not the right way to go. That just causes more hurt feelings and anger. But I do not envy the task of this troop in getting her to just chill out listen. Good luck to you SPLT15 and just remember to treat her as you would like to be treated. You are a good leader and the boys are watching you. You get the privilege of setting an example in everything you do. You've made it to SPL so you obviously have the ability to get through this storm.

 

Much luck to you and your fellow scouts and scouters!

 

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Your right, our troop is very very small, 12 scouts in all.

 

But here's the things, only one person on the committee is trained, and thats are NAVY retired, ex-District Executive, trained and recepiant of the Silver Beaver, Scoutmaster.

 

I went to JLT 2 weeks after the incident, and one of the courses was dealing with adults, and they said I did the right thing.

 

I'm only 14, a Life Scout who is 3 merit badges from Eagle, Silver Stag, Bronze Award, Red Berea, World Conservation Award, Historic Trails Award, founding member of a new Venturing Crew, Recruiter of 3 scouts, but I still dont know how to deal with her even with all my training.

 

I just wish my District Exectutive would come and talk to our Committee about letting the boys run the meetings. She's been a pain since Cub Scouts, heck, she made our Cubmaster quit due to the continuous nagging. She just doesnt see the ideals of scouting, and what its all about. But if there is one thing I do know, she's NOT going to stop me from doing my job, that's the last thing that I will let happen. They can take away all my awards, but if I'm taken out of SPL all but but one scout will leave. All of them but that one have told me that if I'm takin out because of her, they would quit. I'm tryin to be patient.

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SPL - You say that your SM is not to blame. You are wrong. He is the one who is leaving the handling of this whole family up to you. With his background in Scouting he should know better! Talk to him, and the sooner the better. Let him know how the other 10 boys in the Troop feel about how the Troop has been running lately.

 

I think the advice you received here about being extremely polite to this women and taking her to talk to the SM everytime she starts up with you or one of the other scouts is great advice. If you are in the middle of running a PLC then have one of the other boys take her to the SM. Maybe this will force him to actualy deal with her.

 

And SPL, I hate to suggest this because you seem to really care about your Troop, but if your SM refuses to deal with this family then the only solution you may have is to go shopping for a new Troop. If you were my son (who is also 14!) I would advise you to take the 10 other boys and go on a Troop visit. All of you, together. When your Troop leadership realizes that you can very easily vote with your feet and leave them with a Troop of 1 maybe they will finally face the issue. Harsh, but what they are forcing you to deal with is WRONG!

 

 

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There are no other troops! We are the only troop for miles around.

 

Please, just listen to me. My Scoutmaster is a great man. He isn't forcing me to do anything, the reason he left the ASM in charge of that one PLC is because he wanted the ASM to get a feel of how it runs. This woman is convincing many parents nt to let there kids join because she thinks we are rude. She says this because no one wants to be friends with her son, and I cant blame them. We had a sign up night about 3 weeks ago, and we had enough kids that signed up to form three new patrols, you here me, 18 kids! But I saw her take some parents aside and talked to them, a week later only four wanted to stay in scouts. That's another reason Im so upset with her. My SM has talked with her numerous times, but it does no good.

She is too stuborn. She thinks she rules the troop. Tommorrow's our meeting, and if it turns out she is going on our camp-out, I'm gonna try to be patient with her, but if it happens again, I might not be back on this fourm.

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Your frustration is coming through loud and clear, and though you don't seem to realize this, the Scouters here are listening to you carefully and trying to advise accordingly.

 

You said, "I just wish my District Exectutive would come and talk to our Committee about letting the boys run the meetings."

 

That got my attention. Who have you received JLT from? I would call that person, explain the situation (no names, just the type of things taking place) and ask again how to deal with it. Ask who exactly is to be your support person, and if it is the SM (I believe it is), and the SM is not providing the support, then find out who you go to next. Yes, please, do get help. One mark of a good leader is that he knows when to seek help.

 

We all (I feel confident saying this--I've read every message to you) wish you the best and are routing for you and your entire troop to succeed.

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Ok, I kinda getting it all now. But since my committee and SM doesn't want to tell her, wat can I ask them to tell her? All of u are giving me some good advise.

 

Oh yea, I'm in the Choctaw District of Ouachita Valley Council. My District Executive has changed, so I don't know who it is now. There website is

 

http://www.ovcscouting.org

 

 

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SPL, I feel we have reached the limit of where on-line advice like this is of any value to you. You have expressed yourself very well in this thread and have received some excellent advice in the process. But this is a problem you need to work through with your Scoutmaster. Make an appointment with him for just the two of you. Maybe you can print the thread out and give him a copy as a starting point.

 

Best of luck to you and your troop.

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Hello SPLT15,

 

I think you have gotten some great advice and it is about time for the ball to be in your court. I just wanted to write one thing so that you won't be too disappointed or surprised. You seem to be a pretty savvy, alert guy but you did say that you are 14 and adults can see things differently at times.

 

This is something that I more commonly discuss in adult leader training, but maybe it is appropriate here.

 

Many adult leaders in Scouting are parents. Almost all have families, households, etc. Most Boy Scout leaders who have boys in the Troop try extremely hard to be fair with all the boys and to treat everybody equally. But that can be VERY difficult. A parent is first and foremost a parent.

 

Similarly, someone with a family and a household wants to protect that and not risk it. That is an extremely basic need.

 

In a town as small as yours, where this woman is as powerful as you describe, taking her on directly or even indirectly could be personally risky for the SM or other adults in the Troop. They may not want to get involved for reasons that are not lazyness or timidity as much as prudence. They might believe that there is real risk to them, their family or their wellbeing. Powerful people can hold grudges and make others pay.

 

Clearly Scouting and the Troop are extremely important to you and that is wonderful. It is important to them too, but there might be a conflict of priorities.

 

Be nice to your adult leaders. If you can, be reasonable in your expectations. Work with them. They will do their best.

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What you need to do is look up 'psychopathic/ sociopathic personalities.' You'll see that everything you're dealing with here, is there in the discription. You'll also learn that no amount of cajoling, allowance, or understanding will make a difference. This personality wants what they want and they want it now! Everything else in their environment is secondary or less important to their immediate needs. The psychopaths you're familiar with are "Freddy," "Jason," Michael Meyers," well, you get the point, but that's the extreme presented by Hollywood.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are walking among us every day. They may be doctors, lawyers and teachers, or the bully at school. And yes, somebody's mother. They look just like regular people and have jobs just like regular people; But, they arn't like regular people. They believe that they're the only ones who counts, they don't feel for others; thats the point.

As a Correction Officer I see this personality every day 'en masse' as they are the one's most likely to break laws, believing that laws and rules are for everyone else, not them. Usually they believe they are much smarter than everyone else, also.

You also need to understand that others beside yourself will see these people for what they are. It's not just you all alone here in the wilderness.( As a Scout with your credentials this wouldn't be a problem, had to throw that in!) Have comfort that in the end you will learn what you can here and will be better able to handle these manipulative people in the future.

Personally, at 14 you have been through more than you should have. I couldn't have done it with the patience you have shown. The next time this mom is in you face switch it around putting her on the defensive with a simple " Are you threatening me?, I feel threatened!" and then add how she is treading on thin ice, abusing you, verbally and emotionally. I would include the ASM, the husband, in your defense.

Those prospective Scouts probably left when they realized that this woman is part of your organization and they wanted nothing to do with it because of her.

Scouting is a private organization. The troop can have or not have who they want as a leader. I suggest that the SM send the ASM and wife packing.

A lot of readers here will reply that this is a pretty harsh comment. Scouting isn't for everyone, and everyone isn't for Scouting.

Every comment previously posted has presented nice solutions for nice people. You're not dealing with a nice person. I hope my different point of view helps you in dealing with this monumental challenge!! Dave Jacobs, ASM 584, Seaford, DE

So, now meet this challenge and....Be prepared!

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