OA Election Question

[TAMScout 20]

Not by popularity here. I'm interested in the idea of redoing the ordeal. I think that participation as an arrow man would be more appropriate. You are right if adults maintained their ties to the order then there would be adequate supervision. Fortunately for those adults who were not youth arrowmen there will be plenty of need for them as far as we can see into the future. Our Chapter Adviser is one ov those who was nominated as an adult. You won't find a finer Arrowman.

[Basementdweller 608]

There is a very Key component of the OA quality control..... The Scoutmaster.

 

 

The Scoutmaster needs to recommend the boys who are eligible. Sure he has the rank and the nights of camping.....But is he someone that will reflect well on the troop and scouting????

 

So scoutmaster need to grow a pair and not allow the boys who are marginal scouts be elected.

 

 

Like many things Scoutmaster can control the quality of rank advancement, merit badges.....He can influence the quality of the local summer camp by withholding a signature that is required on the application......Scoutmasters recommendation. It can be a good learning experience...

 

 

Bottom line......If you feel a youth is marginal as a scout......Don't let him be elected. This is just like all of the horrible Eagles and First Class scouts that can't make pancakes or start a fire. Reflects on the troop Leadership involved.....Youth and Adult.

 

[Krampus 696]

There is a very Key component of the OA quality control..... The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster needs to recommend the boys who are eligible. Sure he has the rank and the nights of camping.....But is he someone that will reflect well on the troop and scouting???? So scoutmaster need to grow a pair and not allow the boys who are marginal scouts be elected. Like many things Scoutmaster can control the quality of rank advancement' date=' merit badges.....He can influence the quality of the local summer camp by withholding a signature that is required on the application......Scoutmasters recommendation. It can be a good learning experience... Bottom line......If you feel a youth is marginal as a scout......Don't let him be elected. This is just like all of the horrible Eagles and First Class scouts that can't make pancakes or start a fire. Reflects on the troop Leadership involved.....Youth and Adult. [/quote']

 

So two questions:

 

- What guidelines does BSA give that allow you to deny a scout who is eligible for OA election? Serious question, because I am only aware of the Guide to Advancements criteria. I assume if a scout is deemed active and in good standing he can be elected. If you have other guidelines they would be good to see.

 

- For SMCs, if a scout fulfills his requirements a scoutmaster must "pass" him. I would love to hold back some of these scouts who rocket through. But if they have been signed off on their requirements or mbs there is little an scoutmaster can do, no?

[Basementdweller 608]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down....

 

Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster, crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout.

 

Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions.

 

[url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/]

 

[Krampus 696]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down.... Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster' date=' crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout. Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions. [url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/]

 

I get all that. My questions was what criteria other than "I don't think he's ready because xxx" can be used? I ask because if there are no standard critera, such as are outlined in the GTA around what being "active" requires, then any scoutmaster recommendation (or denial) becomes arbitrary.

[sst3rd 129]

I agree with BD on the quality control issue. Krampus, the unit leader approves or disapproves the Scout to be nominated for an OA Election. The unit leader has no written criteria by which to make this decision: no checklist. The unit leader takes the "big" picture approach, and then makes the call. If a Scout wants to know why he didn't get nominated, he can ask for a Scoutmaster's Conference. Or, if the Scoutmaster wants to be proactive (before the OA Election), he can have a Scoutmaster's Conference with each potential candidate, and let them know his decision there. Also, another reason I've been doing it this way for years, it gives you a great opportunity to talk with the Scouts about the OA, and its expectations. I've had Scouts remove their name from nomination, because they felt they didn't have the additional time to participate. Seriously, if you're going to do a sash and dash, don't bother wasting everyone's time, including your own. It's worked for us for over 38 years.

 

sst3rd

[Basementdweller 608]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

 

[Basementdweller 608]

Yesterday you were complaining about more eagles, arrowmen and leaders all of inferior quality....

 

All of the Quality control is unit level.

 

So bad Eagles, who is responsible for that????? Yep the Troop or Crew that signed off on his advancement.

 

Bad Leaders???? Local unit for not properly screening or training their leadership.

 

Arrow men???? Local unit for letting everyone who is eligible get elected.

 

So if every Troop's leadership cared enough about the program to do quality control we wouldn't have First class scouts that can't fry an egg or set up a tent. or Eagle candidates appealing to national because the troop and then district eagle board realized their mistake too late.

[King Ding Dong 540]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Patrol box? What do you use a Patrol box for ? How are you going to haul four or five of those things around when your troop grows because you are delivering a stellar program ? Surely not a gasp "trailer" gasp.

 

"What happened to a boy, a bag and an adventure.

 

Just seems lost in all of the gear."

BD

[Krampus 696]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

You are right, those are not arbitrary reasons. That would all fall under behaviour and might even be considered a discilpinary issue which would be covered under the GTA in the section where they point out that scouts with such issues may not be considered in good standing. I get that and well spotted.

 

My issue is with scouts that may be weak scouts. The show up, participate, get mbs, earn their ranks but have weak core camping skills. If they have been signed off on these skils, even though they are weak, and they have the camping days, there seems to be no reason a scoutmater can hold them back from OA. In my day they would not have been elected, let alone on the ballot. Cannot say why my scoutmaster only put forward the strongest scouts, but he did. Today if someone qualities, short of them being inactive or not in good standing (behaviour) then I still don't see how a scoutmaster can keep them off the ballot.

[Basementdweller 608]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Krampus, follow your instinct. It has been my experience that boys who are weak in skills are really not that interested in scouting...

 

As sstr3d suggested a pre election SMC might be in order to see if they want to be on the ballot. If the scout answered yes, I would voice my concerns about his weak skills and suggest we wait till next election and see if it improves.

 

The boys aren't stupid, they know if they have the skills or not.

 

 

Enjoy yourself king dong.

 

We have a very solid program with the budget we have....The Patrol boxes were build by my committee members when they were boys in the troop in the early 60's. They have some pretty decent pots and chef kits in them. what do you us them for???? Well the patrol method....Your an expert on the subject.....

 

I am limiting our troop size to 37 with the PLC...3 patrols with SPL and three ASPL....The program must be good because we went from 2 active scouts to 20 in about 3 years....I expect to cut off open membership in March of 2014.....Then you will have to wait for an opening. With several troops in the area closing their doors over the gay issue we may close registration sooner. With our definition of active, it may result in your being asked to leave if you do not meet the critieria.

[King Ding Dong 540]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

I do enjoy myself, everyone should. I am certainly not an expert on the Patrol Method, only a student. Great to hear you are having such success, keep up the good work. Turning away youth is problem not many troops experience, certainly not ours. Once sophomore year hits, they disappear.

 

With your troop now having tents and patrol boxes the only real difference in terms of gear between our troops seems to be maybe a few old Coleman stoves with missing knobs for the Old Goat Patrol, and some Dutch ovens. And of course how we transport all that gear.

 

What have you seen in those trailers that offend you so much ?

[Basementdweller 608]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Search on trailers on the forum.....

 

From video game systems to showers.....One troop mounted flat panels so the adults can watch the big game in theirs.......

[King Ding Dong 540]

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

Yeah that is over the top. Never seen that before, our council has banned generators. The search function works rather poorly right now, so some other time.

 

I would guess flat panels are a rare exception. The electronics ban was overlooked last year during the World Series, but from what I could tell it was just radios and smartphones. Scouting is not tailgating.

[Basementdweller 608]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down.... Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster' date=' crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout. Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions. [url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/]

 

I get all that. My questions was what criteria other than "I don't think he's ready because xxx" can be used? I ask because if there are no standard critera, such as are outlined in the GTA around what being "active" requires, then any scoutmaster recommendation (or denial) becomes arbitrary.

Krampus.....I can't find the reply but you said your SM as a youth only put the best scouts up for election to the OA.......You didn't know why? You blame this day and age....

 

So what is so different now from back then???? Why do current leaders not hold their scouts to the same standards as back then????

 

I would never feel pressured to put a scout up for election if he didn't meet the standard........

 

As SM it is my right and I will do my part to improve the quality of Scouting.....