Pilmont mess

[scoutdad 10]

 

Before we trash this scout lets know a little more about him. The scout in question is an extroverted kid with a big heart. Real good kid. The divorce hit him hard, didnt see it coming or at least acknowledge it. Being extroverted he craves being around other people and tries to please adults. His adult brother went on the last trek to philmont and I do believe he was interested in going in the beginning. The hard reality is that his parents will not help fund this trip. Years ago mom and dad had been heavily involved in troop. Mom even lead a white water trip to Colorado. Troop picture from that era shows dad with a beaming grin. I havent seen him smile in years. Neither of them participates in any way now, many times they dont show up for COH. So sad, something just died there. SM had been giving him a lot of attention and had been grooming him to be SPL. I dont think the kid wanted to disappoint the SM, but he couldnt just tell him. Now the SM is very angry with him. On the last campout he screamed at him and called him stupid for trying to start a damp wood campfire with charcoal lighter fluid. (note- I made sure they had a charcoal chimney for the campout, an adult brought the lighter fluid) I try to lookout for this kid but the SM is becoming borderline abusive to him.

 

YIS

scoutdad

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Sorry for sounding a little legalistic with my plan, but problems arise out of poorly communicated expectations.

[eisely 13]

At a minimum it is fair to say that the SM has mishandled this situation, and apparently is continuing to make things worse for this lad, rather than better.

 

Regarding Philmont per se, I fail to see the big issue here. Lacking clear communication, in my mind there was no "contract." This boy probably really wants to go, given his brother's prior participation. This suggests several courses of action.

 

Somebody, not the SM, ought to contact the now divorced parents and see if there is a willingness to finance this. The emotional stakes could be very high for this boy. This may be something he really needs. Has anybody thought about that?

 

If the boy clearly is not going to go, substitutes can be found. Further, the troop really is not on the hook for the full cost of Philmont, only what has been paid so far. If you have less than a full crew, you ultimately pay for only those who actually go, although the earnest money for a full crew stays with Philmont. Somebody correct me on this if I am wrong.

 

It clearly is wrong of the SM to publicly humiliate this young man. The troop cannot hold him financially responsible for the advances on his account under these circumstances.

[scoutdad 10]

 

Thanks for your comments Barry. The one thorny issue left is the money. I took over being treasurer a few months back and began giving the kids complete reports showing all transactions. In the past all they saw was their balances. I think this scout thought that when he didnt come up with the $75 that he would be dropped from the crew. Unbeknownst to him money was being taken out of his account. His account is now $108 in the hole. I would like to clear this up rather than have this hanging over his head. What should be done? I tell these guys (my son, this scout and the other new scout) that a philmont trip could be an experience of a life time particularly with your best friends. But they are at that age where understand and expect to be involved in active planning and leadership (ownership) of such a trip, but to go with a self-center controlling adult would be a waste of a couple of hard earned summers work.

 

YIS

Scoutdad

I think this scout stuff is pretty cool too!

 

[dan 10]

Is it possbile that this scout really wants to go and the money is just not avaiable?

Would it be possbile for a campership or something like that if money is the issue?

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>I would like to clear this up rather than have this hanging over his head.

[Eamonn 61]

Laurie

I think that any adult picking on a youth is wrong.

While I have been informed that we no longer use the term "Save Haven" I have always thought that Scouting was a safe place.

A place where no one gets harmed.

This Leader was totally out of line.

To use the Scoutmaster Minute to make a child feel worse then this poor kid already - Ranks up there with unforgivable sins.

 

[Laurie 10]

Thank you for clarifying Eamonn. I thought I might have misunderstood, and I did.

[Mike F 10]

scoutdad,

Take another look at the money your troop has sent Philmont. We're going in '04, too, and have only sent $50 per person. Next payment ($212.50 each) is due on 1 Oct (next week).

It's possible that your troop was collecting money in small chunks before it was due. If so, the only money actually on the hook right now is the $50 that has already been sent to Philmont, unless they sent the next payment early.

 

Money for first boy - Idea of approaching parents is a good one. Hopefully they'll see the value. Boy can also make money mowing lawns, etc. - my son earned about $400 toward canoe trip this summer.

 

Replacements - get the word out at Roundtable, etc. There are guys out there who will never have another opportunity to go if they don't go with you.

 

Standby List - very important - things come up. We're blessed (sort of) with 8 Scouts and 12 Adults on standby. They're expected to take part in all training activities so they can jump in.

 

SM - good luck...

[Eamonn 61]

Our Council High Adventure / Jamboree Committee held a rally last night. At the start of the rally there were four spaces for next years Sea Base trip, by the end of it all four were filled, each with a $650.00 payment.

Put me in mind of the movie; Field Of Dreams.

Eamonn

[NeilLup 13]

Concerning the "Troop Account" paying for the trip.

 

A sad lesson that I learned awhile ago dealing with Wood Badge scholarships.

 

Even if there is a full scholarship, we ask the person to pay a significant part of the cost up front. Then, when they complete the course, they get the money back. If they don't show or drop out, no reimbursement.

 

I would always suggest such an arrangement to ensure that there is some real commitment to participation.

[ScoutNut 147]

From what you have said this is not the only boy to garner the SM's wrath by dropping out. It also sounds like you will be having at LEAST 1 more boy "drop out" because he was never really in. It sounds to me like this SM was planning his own vacation from the very first and using the boys in the Crew to get it. Shame on him!

 

Yes, you have a mess alright. The mess is the SM! Talk to him immediately and let him know that unless he stops verbaly abusing this scout (and any others who decide not to go on his vacation) that you will report him to your Council Scout Executive per the procedures laid down in BSA Youth Protection.

 

After you get him muzzled, have a meeting with the remaining boys and their parents and get in writing a commitment to go on the trek. You might be down to just the 4 adults and 1 or 2 boys at this point. Now, however, you should have an idea of how many boys you need to recruit for the trip. Put out flyers at council. Visit roundtables for all districts. Provide fundraising opportunities for any boy interested.

 

If after all of this you can not fill the needed slots, then the Crew should eat the difference in cost. The boy with the divorced parents who dropped out should get a complete refund because he and his parents neither gave permission for, or had any idea that the money was being deducted from his account.

 

What this SM did with this trip is horrible! If he was so desperate to get to Philmont he could have gone on his own! Scouters take their entire families there every year. Granted it's not for a high adventure backcountry trek, but it sure sounds like this SM could benefit from some of the training courses offered there!

[LauraT7 13]

Scoutnut is right - this is not the boy's fault or his problem -

 

it is a problem designed for trouble by the SM and possibly, other adults.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but What I "hear" from above is this:

 

-SM wants a certain kind of trek

-this choice of trek eliminates some of the boys who would otherwise go

- SM is trying to hold one, or more, boys to their verbal interest in a trip as if the BOY had the legal right to decide and commit. The boys are minors, and legally have no right to commit themselves without parental approval.

-SM or other leadership authorised charging this boy for a serious financial commitment without parental authorization or even the boys' knowing about it.

-SM then publicly let this boys' financial and family problems be known, and berated the boy publicly for a situation outside of the boy's knowledge.

 

 

Couple of things to consider:

 

In one or two years, many things can happen. What if some boy gets a broken leg or his family gets transferred and he can't go? is this the BOY's Fault? should that boy be penalized? No more is it this boy's fault that his parents are thinking more of themselves and their divorce, than of their boy right now. It's sad, but very common - that many divorced couples cannot put their own mess aside for their kids. Been there, done that.

 

As for him getting a job - Heck, I can't get a job and I have a college degree and skills! These are tough financial times - his family situation makes it worse. Don't kick a guy when he is down - it's not very scout-like!

 

A boy's account should NEVER be "overdrawn" if he does not have funds to cover events, something should be said TO HIS PARENTS the minute he gets close. if he needs financial assistance, it should be discussed THEN. not AFTER he 'owes' money. Boy scout Treasurers should not have to be creditors, too.

 

Any financial expenditures over a typical troop or patrol campout cost, should be acknowledged and approved by a parent before it is considered a commiment. the boy should be informed of ANY withdrawl from the boy's troop account. I know this is not a legal contract - still - a person under 18 cannot MAKE a contract in most states - so your 'agreement' for these kinds of trips should be with the parents, who have the legal right to control the activities of their child - no matter how 'mature' and responsible that child may be. If the troop chooses to let the boys make their own financial decision on regular campouts, that is fine - and if the troop loses by it - well, you takes your risks. at least a campout is not an expensive learning experience. But dealing with third parties should teach you something - Philmont, Summer camps, trek programs - require contracts signed by LEGAL ADULTS - not 16 yr old boys, even if they ARE responsible or Eagle scouts.

 

-would a les strenuous trek involve MORE boys? is THIS trek truly the BOYS choice? if it is not, and you still have time - I urge you to change it to the trek the most BOYS in the troop want. This sounds like the SM wanted a trek in Philmont, and he is looking to fill out the trip HE wants to go on. That Ain't scouting!

[mk9750 11]

Laura,

 

you make many good points here, but I do disagree with one of them.

 

You are right that a youth has no standing to make a legal commitment, that that is the parents right and responsiblity alone. but I don't see a cimmitment to attend a Scout event, even one as arduous as Philmont, as a legal commitment. And if it isn't, then we are sabotaging our efforts to allow boys to be responsible for themselves if we don't hold them responsible for their actions. As I suggested before, I am not saying make him pay the whole thing, but he did make the commitment, apparently, and people counted on his word. It sounds like he has an unfortunate situation at home (your point about the parents being too selfish in this case is perfect!), but he should have gotten their permission before he said yes. If we let guys off the hook for stuff like this, without at least some consequences for his actions, then we run the risk of teaching him (and others) that I can make commitments all the time and change my mind with impunity.

 

I also want to point out how right you about the overdrawn Scout account. That is irresponsible of the person who controls those accounts (the assumption I think was that it is an adult, but it could have been a boy). Either way, they goofed not the boy. He should not be responsible for anything over what was in his account.

 

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

 

Mark

[Eamonn 61]

Mark

While I agree with you to a point, I do think that we as adults have to remember that we are dealing with young Lads that may not yet see the world as we do.

I only have to look at my little darling to see that.

OJ is just 15.All in all a good kid. He wants to do everything and do it now. Number one on his list is a car. He is counting the days. I have said that he is on his own. So the other night he went out and came home with all sorts of applications. I can't fault him for that.

I did mention that he had said that he was going to apply for the Trail Crew at Philmont. He gave this some thought and said that he would do the Trail Crew in 2005. I reminded him that in 2005 he has applied to be a staff member at the Jamboree. Oh - He said.

Looking at the pile of applications I reminded him that we are off to Ireland for a month next year and that he was going to NOAC,he had also said that he was going back to be on staff for the JLTC and there was soccer camp.With all this did he think that he had time for a job?

Maybe I'm wrong but boys of his age have a hard time with future planning.

I would hope that his crew leader and Scoutmaster would understand this and while it might be ok to find out if there is any interest in doing something that is going to cost a lot. They would check with the parent before moving ahead.

By the way I'm in the market for a safe cheap car!!

Eamonn