Jump to content
Basementdweller

Who carries a firearm on Scout Outings???

Recommended Posts

I find it quite comical to have charges of paranoia and ridicule coming from a bunch of people who are irrationally afraid of a group of people that has the safest demographics in the nation.

 

Nobody's afraid of da group, eh? I am a touch concerned about a subset of da group that seems to be overly fearful of other stuff.

 

As I've mentioned and cited, da "group" does not necessarily have the safest demographics in the nation. From da Texas records, CCW permit holders are more likely than others to commit sexual assaults (includin' molesting children), and more likely to commit violent crimes that involve firearms. Some of that is demographics unrelated to gettin' a permit.

 

There's really no very good research on this stuff, eh? Da Ann Coulter citation from Eagledad mentions one study, but ignores a dozen others with different conclusions. Da consensus is it's all a muddle, which means the data don't support any conclusion.

 

Given that, my own position is yeh let freedom reign. Democracy is built on trustin' its citizens in general.

 

In specific, though, I don't think individuals who espouse or demonstrate poor judgment, poor risk assessment, or deeper mental defect in themselves or members of their family should carry, or perhaps even possess any form of ammunition. We trust citizens to drive cars, but not every citizen should drive a car. I know I took all da firearms and ammo from a friend of mine once who was goin' through a lot of stress and hard times. No different than I would take keys away from a friend who had too much to drink.

 

Carryin' on scout outings is poor judgment as well.

 

 

Beavah alleges a lot of deaths caused by accidental discharge this year. Citations please.

 

Center for Disease Control, National Center for Vital Statistics, categories W32-W34.

 

The first is that there are numerous stories of lives every month SAVED by citizens exercising their Second Amendment rights despite the inherent bias in most major media against reporting on this.

 

I've no doubt that there are stories, eh? I could make one up right now. :) Now, how about a citation that establishes the implied claim that there are actual lives saved every month? Not just "there was a big scary man and I frightened him with my pistol," and not stories from da inherently biased professional gun lobby.

 

Why do you bother training in CPR or Wilderness First Aid when the chances of having to use either are vanishingly small?

And yet orders of magnitude higher than havin' need of a firearm. I've used Wilderness First Aid trainin' more times than I can count. Includin' da big bandages. ;) Never had need of a firearm in da woods unless I was huntin'.

 

How many times have any of you dug into and used the spare fuses located in your car's fuse box?

Last month. Da fuse for da accessory outlets. Darned if I know why; I think it might have been some scouts tryin' to charge somethin' with my inverter.

 

As has been said any number of times now, da comparison to first aid trainin' isn't accurate. Yeh can't harm someone through improper use of a gauze pad. A scout can't hurt someone else if he gets a hold of your SAM splint.

 

Da comparison yeh want is to carrying intravenous medications or other serious meds, where improper use can seriously harm someone, as well as save 'em. In da medical world, that requires extensive training and licensure, and comes with increased regulation, supervision, and liability. That's da proper group to compare carryin' firearms for protection to.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said, most of what newspapers or outfits like the CDC call "accidental discharge" is NEGLIGENT. In fact, Safety is one of the first things we teach in Rifle Merit Badge. "Cleaning" the firearm before positively checking for an empty chamber is negligence, not an accident. Pointing the firearm at someone except when you mean to use it is negligent. "Dry firing" when you haven't verified the chamber is empty is negligent. Most CCWers AND Scouters using firearms I know are aware of that.

 

"I've no doubt that there are stories, eh? I could make one up right now. Now, how about a citation that establishes the implied claim that there are actual lives saved every month? Not just "there was a big scary man and I frightened him with my pistol," and not stories from da inherently biased professional gun lobby."

 

Every issue every month of American Rifleman carries newspaper stories (including date and source) of these. EVERY SINGLE MONTH. Not stories from lobbyists, not stories generated by the NRA, actual newspaper citations (some of them papers that aren't even friendly to the NRA or 2A).

 

I suspect actual crime and wilderness first aid statistics would belie your claim that the chances of Jane Q Public using CPR or wilderness first aid are greater than using a firearm in self-defense mainly because firearms are used in self-defense every month. Our SAR teams in Colorado are busier than those in most states and there just aren't that many incidents.

 

The fact remains you and others here have spewed a lot of FUD about things that "might" happen if a non-LEO carried on an outing, several people have admitted to it or knew others who did and NONE of it has happened. You're reacting to the subject out of fear and paranoia. I've got several reasons for not carrying on a Scout outing -- primarily the fact that the G2SS prohibits it -- but most of the reasons cited here are pure garbage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting thread.

 

Why would a survivalist who fears the breakdown of society want "frangible" rounds? Frangible rounds have less penetration in return for less likelihood of ricochet, hence their use by Sky Marshalls as a necessary third best in a pressurized aircraft crowded with people. If you want to mow people down, you want hollow tips, soft point - a least full metal jacket.

 

Most people who are the most afraid of firearms know the least about them, doubtless adding the fear of the unknown to other drivers of anxiety. Hence the "assault weapons ban" that banned flash suppressors but allowed compensators (for better rapid-fire accuracy); banned telescoping stocks but allowed folding stocks; and did not ban a single fully-automatic rifle (the type of rifle that was known as an "assault rifle" until BATF got creative), a class of arms heavily restricted (but not banned)since the 1930's. (Odds are overwhelming that you too can legally own a real machine gun if you can own any firearm. It's simply very expensive to get the permit.)

 

Re CPR: Deaths from heart attack in the wilderness are about one-third of the total of wilderness deaths and exceed deaths from gun shot by about 34 to 1 per the only statistical studies of wilderness deaths. Statistically, CPR training is far more relevant to safety than firearms.

 

More people are killed by motor vehicles in the wilderness and on Scouting outings than by any other cause. IIRC, more Scouts are killed thus than by all other causes combined. One might worry about the driving SKILL and records of those intrusted with our children, but I am aware of no testing or certification program. And of course none of you ever drive 60 in a 55 zone with Scouts aboard, right? (Recalling how I am routinely left "in the dust" by dad's -- and the Scoutmaster -- roaring off to get home for the Sunday football games.) We know from the national 55 limit that driving slower saved tens of thousands of lives.

 

 

BSA rules have been invoked. Funny about rules. People -- none of you I am sure -- often pick and choose what rules they follow.

 

For example, YPT prohibits a Patrol Leader from doing anything to keep order in his patrol as he is bidden to do by the Patrol Leader's Handbook. That behavior would be, in standard English usage, keeping disciple, and all discipline is to be by adults. Much less could the PL assign KP to someone who did not do KP when he was assigned to do so.

 

Calling those with whom you disagree "crazy" or the equivalent violates the most fundamental of the rules of Scouting - the Scout Law.

 

And of course none of you drive 60, or 65, or 70, or 75 in a 55 zone, right? (GTSS)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in 2011 a remote camp was attacked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

 

Along with the Belsam attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

 

It is time to take a serious look at our camps and how we manage our risks. Truely we need to do our own risk assesment for every event and take the actions needed to bring our scouts home.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well folks, another outing this weekend. It's turned cold enough to be decent hiking weather. But after this conversation, you can bet I'll keep my eye out for Miss Piggy! If she attacks I'll display my bottle of barbecue sauce. That ought to do it.

 

Edit: MAN!!! I just realized I missed the end of the earth, I must have slept through it. Can anyone catch me up on what happened?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ya supposed to end 6:11 AM here.

 

my alarm went off 6:15....Listened for a moment for the zombie horde, earth wasn't shaking from the meteor strikes and earth quakes, No flood, I was breathing so the atmosphere hadn't been sucked away.

 

6;20....rolled around, better get up before son gets all the hot water.

 

Still choking down that terrible coffee the mrs saved a dollar on because she had a coupon.

 

 

Thats about it here.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In response to the comment about dogs. I don't bring them for protection, they come with us on family camping trips. They love fresh air, lake swimming, and hiking in the woods too. I am less worried about bear attacks than I am about malcontents I have encountered on the AT or in State Parks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basementdweller,

 

Well the NRA just spoke up (I watched the whole thing live) and their answer is:

 

(a) Bad media (well a point there)

(b) An armed guard at every school!

 

So now new gun restrictions at all! So I suppose in order to prevent the NRA volunteer armed guards they will need to heavily armed to fight the baddies who can get whatever they want unrestricted. So what...machineguns? If I was a crazy I would take down the guard and then get everyone.

 

I was very disappointed the NRA will not engage in any gun restriction discussion...seems like a double down on crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya TT, I don't get it either.

 

 

They have an all or nothing mentality.

 

So instead of enjoying their big black guns with a 10 shot clip they might not get to enjoy them at all.

 

I hope it doesn't come to that, but it just might.

 

I don't like guns in schools one bit. Just askin for trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

seems to me that the pro gun side is (mostly) using logic and common sense, and the other side is using emotion.

" OMG! someone has a 22? now I'm scared to go camping within a mile of them."

OK so that's a little extreme, sorry

but come on people, 99.99% of us gun folks are not unstable, zombie fearing, nutjobs.

MSNBC and da Beavah to the contrary.

a lot of hikers on the AT carry, they do not go waving them about, nor do they fire at noises in the night.

In Vermont back in the 80's there were enough roving feral dog packs that hikers of the green mountain state were ENCOURGED to carry a firearm, I dont know how many did.

I've been hiking and camping every chance I get, for 43 years now,in scouting and out, some places I take a gun, some places not. Frankly some of the two legged critters I've met have scared me more than the bears and big kittycats.

If you chose not to have a gun, fine by me. but there are dangers in the wilderness, as well as the inner city, and if you have trained, if you have practiced,if its legal, taking a firearm is to many of us simply a prudent thing to do.

Stay safe-Old scout

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also knew a scouter who was stationed way up in Alaska years ago. he told me due the the polar bears every time the troop went camping there was always a dad who just "happened" to be hiking and camping nearby at the same site. With a big rifle. Not that he was listed as an ASM for that outing you understand. That would be against scouting policy. Next month some other dad would have the duty.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×