packsaddle 753 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 "There are ornery, misguided people in the wilderness..." Heck, I'm ornery and misguided...but I'm not a criminal, lol. The vandalism you experienced would have occurred even if you were packing. It happened while you were not present. I've caught vandals before. One person had hacked down some trees in order to get a better view. In that case I don't think I'd draw down on the guy: the trees are dead already and what he really needed was some education...which I gave him. In another case, I have often caught people littering. Most of the time they'd rather just pick up the litter and get the heck away from my 'education program'. Pulling a gun probably wouldn't improve the lesson much. People who are going to commit a major crime that causes serious property damage or bodily harm are likely to pick a time in which its' not going to help much for others to be carrying a weapon. The criminal will likely either have the advantage of surprise in which case your weapon is just as likely to become 'their' weapon or else they'll do it when they know no one is around. Yes, I've encountered badly-behaved persons, drunks and the like. Most of the time, even if they're aggressive, I can just leave them in my dust. You're right about wilderness use. The more crowded it gets with people, the more often people will bring their bad behaviors to the wild. It's sad but true. But I still don't see that any of this is improved if all of a sudden there's an abundance of guns out there as well. Most likely, all that will happen is more people will get shot, and not necessarily the 'bad guys'. Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Whoa, I just had a shock of "cognitive dissonance", I think. Learned that term here, and I think it describes what I just felt I thought we were in the "No Child left Outdoors" generation, where people don't go into the wild, or backcountry or off road or whatever its called now as its too dity and hard and video games approximate the same experience Are we saying so many people are now in the back country to the point we need "to carry" ? What happened to the lack of people going outdoors and not wanting to get dirty, I get so confused! Link to post Share on other sites
Eaglemom2b 10 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I didn't say anything about guns, not one word. The only point I addressed was in regard to the number and type of people in the wilderness due to changes in accessibility. One of the first things discussed in Leave No Trace training is the change accessibility has had on the environment. From the LNT webpage: Between 1965 and 1980, backcountry visits jumped from 4 million visitor days per year to 10 million per year. (A visitor day is a 12 hour stay by one person.) In 1984 the number grew to 15 million visitor days up 275 percent in less than 20 years. The numbers of backcountry (and frontcountry) visitors continue to grow at a fast pace. That trend appears to be continuing. The Florissant Fossil Beds in CO has seen a 10%+ increase in visitors over the last 5 years, from 55,000 visitors in 2007 to almost 62,000 in 2011. CO national Monument went from 395,000 to over 435,000 per year; again, another 10% increase. Here's the link to the 5 year report from the NPR: https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/System%20Wide%20Reports/5%20Year%20Annual%20Report%20By%20Park What I do not know by looking at the numbers is the age range of the visitors. I doubt, however, that a bunch of 6 year olds are heading out to the fossil beds of their own volition and accord. My point, and my only point, is this: we are kidding ourselves if we believe that every person who ventures out into the backcountry is going to have the same agenda, philosophy and ethics as we (scouters) do. I make no supposition as to the possibility of running into a troublemaker or finding oneself in a life threatening situation, from either two- or four-legged perpetrators. I will not, however, disregard the concern of other individuals because I know the possibility exists. Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Not sure where Beavah got his info about Texas Concealed Carry Permit holders, but the url below is to the official Texas Department of Public Safety statistics. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Eaglemom2b, I was just responding in the spirit of the subject given in the thread title. Sorry if I misunderstood. Link to post Share on other sites
Eaglemom2b 10 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Packsaddle - no harm, no foul. I just wanted to make sure the general readership understood my perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Not sure where Beavah got his info about Texas Concealed Carry Permit holders Yah, that was posted earlier on, perdidochas. Page 3 of this thread. It's based on a comprehensive peer-reviewed study of da statistics you mention. See http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2012.300807 Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Vandalism has gradations... ""Lockheed Martin CEO cited for cutting trees along the Potomac"" ""...after Daniel Snyder, the owner of the Washington Redskins, was penalized for cutting down 130 trees to improve the view from his Potomac estate, one of his high-powered neighbors is coming under fire for clear-cutting nearly an acre of protected land ..."" http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-10-08/local/35498891_1_scenic-easement-trees-compensation-package Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Vandalism has gradations... ""Lockheed Martin CEO cited for cutting trees along the Potomac"" ""...after Daniel Snyder, the owner of the Washington Redskins, was penalized for cutting down 130 trees to improve the view from his Potomac estate, one of his high-powered neighbors is coming under fire for clear-cutting nearly an acre of protected land ..."" http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-10-08/local/35498891_1_scenic-easement-trees-compensation-package Link to post Share on other sites
cyclops 55 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 OK, someone asked for a new thread and I had a hunch that someone had beat it to death before. I was right. So...in the opinion of the gun nuts out there, what is the best concealed carry firearm for BSA outings? Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 A lot has changed in the past 3 years..... might be a good idea to revisit the issue. It might be a good idea to maybe find some statistics on how many people carried weapons in 2013 and how many carry today. Keep it in mind that Scouter who posses a knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2" can be arrested if it is concealed in my state. So if one is going to carry a hunting knife, either wear it open carry or take it off and put it in your trunk before driving your car. If it's in the passenger area in the open and you're not carrying it, you will be arrested. And of course make sure when you put your picnic basket in the car it's in the trunk. A dinner knife is still by definition a knife and is limited to the 2 1/2" limit. These are just the laws pertaining to knives. It gets ridiculous when we start talking guns. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle94-A1 2687 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 One of the former leaders/dads in Cub Scouts ALWAYS either carried on him or in the trunk of his car, firearms. He was also the head of the SWAT team, so he was on call 24/7. Currently one of the ASMs will be concealed carrying when he is on call. Yep, law enforcement again. One time it got real interesting when I was doing training, and he showed up in his work van. He was on call that weekend, and actually had to get permission to go 50 feet outside the city limits with the vehicle. Thankfully the powers that be are pro Scouting. Link to post Share on other sites
walk in the woods 888 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 OK, someone asked for a new thread and I had a hunch that someone had beat it to death before. I was right. So...in the opinion of the gun nuts out there, what is the best concealed carry firearm for BSA outings? The short and obvious answer is the one that I'm trained and qualified to carry. As for the specific firearm, I suppose like everything in the outdoors it depends on where you are going, what you are doing, and the risks you expect to encounter. You know, be prepared and all. But at a higher level, if the parents and CO of a unit are comfortable with their leader(s) carrying a firearm (concealed or open), what business is it of yours or any other control-freak? Your irrational gun fears do not create a claim on my freedoms. Now, can we be done with the name calling? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 My kid brother (law enforcement officer) plays by the rules. He and his buddy were going to do some bear hunting in Northern MN. 6 weeks prior to the season, they faithfully baited a spot to hunt. They hauled up some really good garbage. Well, one of the weeks near to opening day, his buddy couldn't make it up there so he went by himself. When he pulled into the farmer's drive and started hauling out garbage, the farmer's wife came out and asked him where his buddy was and he said he couldn't make it up that week. She went back into the house got her hat and coat and buckshot loaded shotgun and said she'd go with him. She said only and idiot would go out there unarmed. Up until then the only gun the two of them carried was my brothers .38 service revolver, no where near enough firepower for a bear. He learned his lesson and was lucky. I have been camping for over 60 years with the early years with my family. I didn't realize it until my brother told my dad this story that the camper we used always had a loaded 12 gauge under the mattress any time we went camping. I do remember going hunting when camping, Dad told me about the guns during the civil unrest of the '60's, but I didn't realize the guns were there all the time. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 OK, someone asked for a new thread and I had a hunch that someone had beat it to death before. I was right. So...in the opinion of the gun nuts out there, what is the best concealed carry firearm for BSA outings? "Gun nuts"? As opposed to the "Gun Restriction Nuts"? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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