What is your program about?”

[Rooster7 11]

Instead of saying a short rote prayer, where by a few if any, actually grasp and/or embrace the meaning (but everyone mindlessly repeats) - I am suggesting a prayer that is from an individual's heartnot rehearsed or from a book, and addresses concerns that are close to that individual and those around him.

 

P.S. - You generally know one when you hear one.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Rooster, I think I have it, its kinda like when you hear the pledge to the flag or the scout law repeated like the drones of a Grade B horror flick.

 

You do want to have more emotionally uplifitng prayers, I can understand that.

[Rooster7 11]

OGE,

 

Exactly...and yes to the latter thought as well. :-)(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Twocubdad 665]

Not trying to pick on you Rooster, but your list still primarily relates to faith and patriotism. Can we add to it?

 

Compassion -- visit nursing home, or any number of service projects.

Resourcefullness -- survival weekend, Einstein kits

Courage -- COPE or obstacle course; program with a Medal of Honor recipient (this one we're trying to this with our pack)

Responsibility -- tie-in with shooting sports, whittlin' or totin' chip

Perserverence -- COPE or obstacle or any advancement which requires long-term project (fitness, personal finance, etc.)

 

Can any one else add more?

 

An important thing to remember is that these lessons don't have to be stand-alone, original programs. At day camp this year we asked our station managers to incorporate these values into their program. In some cases the program was adapted, for instance the Scouts ran the obstacle course in pairs, holding onto a length of string to show cooperation. Games were played with one team wearing goggles smeared with vasaline to simulate a handicap and teaching compassion. At other areas we didn't modify the program, but at the end of each session just connected to dots for the boys. At BBs and archery we explained that one of the things they were leaning was how to act responsibly with things that could be dangerous if misused. Fishing included a lesson on local game laws and why we should respect them. Etc., etc., etc.

 

Of course the Character Connections and Ethics in Action materials includes a lot of this. One thing I like about the new Cub books is that while the requirements haven't changed much, they have been reworded to make the value they are teaching more obvious to the Scouts.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>They need to hear the reasoning behind our behavior.>In fact, my concern is very consistent with the mission statement.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Rooster defines the kind of prayers that should be said at Scout gatherings as follows:

 

Instead of saying a short rote prayer, where by a few if any, actually grasp and/or embrace the meaning (but everyone mindlessly repeats) - I am suggesting a prayer that is from an individual's heartnot rehearsed or from a book, and addresses concerns that are close to that individual and those around him.

 

I'm going to try to say this in a way that does not "disqualify" this thread from being in the "Open Discussion" topic. Because this thread is partly about religion and its place in Scouting, it is obviously knocking on the door of what should be in "Issues and Politics" already.

 

Rooster, first of all, are you saying that a prayer "rehearsed from a book" cannot be "heartfelt"? Forget Scout meetings for a moment. Don't worship services from all the major religions involve prayers "rehearsed from a book"? Maybe I shouldn't say that because I have never been at a worship service in a Protestant church, not counting weddings. But they (you) do have prayer books there, right? In those religions/denominations where I have attended multiple times (Jewish, which I am at least by upbringing and ethnicity if not actual practice, and Catholic, which my wife is), unless I was missing something, the prayers are generally all out of a book, though few actually need the book. I suspect that those who worship in those religions might take offense at your characterization of what is not "heartfelt," as it could easily be interpreted to apply to their services. I doubt there are many people who would say their own prayers are not heartfelt, even if they are talking about prayers they have been reciting since they were six years old... or in the case of the Great Scoutmaster, since their first meeting of a troop where this custom is observed.

 

But that aside, I am not sure how all of these lengthy, individualized prayers would work in Scouting. Is it one per event? Does everybody have to do one at some point? Does this include both boys and adults? I would also point out that not everyone who believes in God (under whatever name) necessarily believes in prayer, and as I suggest above, it appears to me that your view of what is required for a heartfelt prayer is not necessarily accepted in all major religions. Also, when you get into "addressing concerns," it sounds like you are not just talking about a prayer, it almost becomes a speech with a prayer inside it. Is that appropriate at all Scout gatherings?

 

I think the whole point of the Great Scoutmaster and other similar prayers is to address the needs of a diverse population, and also to provide something that everybody knows. It works regardless of what ones conception of God is. I think it also serves multiple purposes to have everybody recite the same well-known prayer. In my son's troop, at the very end of the closing everybody forms their arms into a circle in front of them, bows their heads into the circle, and says the prayer. It requires everyone to do the same thing at the same time, it provides just a brief moment of quiet reflection, it shows reverence, and acknowledges the importance of the higher power both to the boy himself and to the Scouting program as a whole. It's like saying, "God bless our troop and all of us." What's wrong with that?

 

Having said all that, I am not suggesting that troops should not do what you are talking about. It seems to me that it would be appropriate in a troop where all the members see prayer as you do. But where you have members of many different religions and denominations, all of whom have their own traditions regarding prayer, it seems more likely that a simple recited acknowledgement of God will be more appropriate. Of course, on special occasions something more elaborate and "original" is fine, but in my experience, on those occasions the person giving the prayer is usually an ordained clergy-person, who (again, generally) will conform his words to the group he sees in front of him.

 

[Rooster7 11]

NJ,

 

Suffice it to say, my view on prayer (which is one that is shared by many Christians) is not the same as yours. While this is not the topic of the thread - I don't believe a Scout has to sacrifice his individuality to subdue the masses, even in regards to how he might say a prayer in public. Your suggestion is contradictory and counterproductive (i.e., "don't pray in that manner" so that other faiths won't be offended). I find your suggestion to be offensive to my faith. If everyone took this tact, eventually, Scouting would have to disassociate itself with all faiths, because someone somewhere, would claim to be offended. Carrying your suggestion to the extreme, "the Great Scoutmaster" prayer could be construed as offensive to those faiths that embrace multiple deities. My point - Let folks practice their own faith as they see fit AND - Don't try to censor Scout and Scouters so that their faith is unrecognizable. It's offensive. Scouts and Scouters should be able to pray as their faith encourages them to do so. If the prayer is public, then other Scouts and Scouters should be tolerant enough to hear it. And before someone throws out the "fine, but do it in your church" counter argument - I try to practice my faith wherever I go, it has nothing to do with a building.

 

[Rooster7 11]

EagleDad,

 

While your questions were thought provoking, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were trying to expose a flaw in my reasoning by juxtaposing it against the BSA mission statement. Sorry - But I find myself on the defensive sometimes. It's partly me...maybe its mostly me (who knows). And it's partly the argumentative nature of some other posters. So, I appreciate the fact that we agree and I hope you did not take offense.

 

[Eagledad 2777]

Not at all. I know I'm not a good writter of my thoughts. Sometimes I just need a second chance.

 

I just keep practicing and thankful for everyones patience.

 

Barry

[Eamonn 61]

Some Thoughts.

Baden Powell said "It is better to do good, then be good"

Baden Went on to say about Scouts Own, that any leader who couldn't make his point in ten minutes ought to be shot!!

Boys don't join Scouts for any other reason then to have fun. It is the job of the clever leader to seize the opportunity to get the God and Country into the Scout.

A Scout makes an Oath to "Do My Best"

It his Oath, His best.

We do not have the right to judge.

As to why does Scouts and Scouting take second place? Maybe it is because we are so good that we give our youth Roots and Wings.

They know that we care for them and will be here for them when the season is over, they are aware that on our team no one sits on the bench.

As I say just a few thoughts.

Eamonn

[evmori 11]

Growing boys into responsible adults. I feel Scouting has the opportunity to teach boys responsibility & committment.

 

Like OGE's unit, grace is said before each meal and usually by one of the Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

I tend to agree that the program should include ALL the components mentioned several times in this thread. I would argue that all the others could be derived from 'Honesty'.

The boys in our troop (the troop I serve) are quite diverse in their religious backgrounds. We use the "Great Scoutmaster" version for our closings. If the CO minister attends a COH, he gives the prayer of his choice.

 

Although the SM is devout in his faith, he knows that to push expressions of his faith risks going against a significant number of boys with other faiths - boys who are some of our best leaders. There is a conflict here for him and he discusses it often. Although he wants to evangelize, his church also has a mandate to be inclusive and bring in youth from the larger community. [i think I have mentioned before that the CO has practically no boys in the troop] Therefore, we keep such expressions in the more generic format and try to avoid fracturing the troop. So far, so good.

[Rooster7 11]

Allowing/Encouraging boys to offer prayers from their hearts (as they feel led, regardless of faith) was just one point I made, in regards to how troops might be able to put more focus on character building. If open prayer rubs you the wrong way, I'm sorry...But that wasn't the primary emphasis of this thread. It's sad that some folks find it to be such a sore point that they can't focus on any other aspect of this discussion. So, NJ and others - I hear your message - "If there's a chance that one person will be offended or slighted, then we should oppress everyone's right to publicly express their faith in a Scouting forum." - I just don't agree with that message. This sentiment is being presented as if it were inspired by a vision of multi-culturalism, when in reality it's narrow minded and oppressive towards all faiths. The BSA encourages each Scout and Scouter to embrace his faith. Apparently, you feel thats just grand, as long as each Scout and Scouter expresses his faith within the confines of his home or church (i.e., anywhere but not near any other Scouts or Scouters). I dont think thats what the BSA intended. In the name of tolerance, we should encourage open expression of peoples faiths, not oppress it.

 

Regardless - I repeat - the above debate was not the intended focus of this thread. My aim was to call attention to the fact that many troops seem to treat "character building" as if it was something to be avoided as opposed to a mainstay of the BSA program.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Packsaddle, your comment about the SM who is devout and is "conflicted" about expressions of faith to the boys, made me think about my son's troop. I realize that I do not know what religion or denomination any of the leaders of the troop are, though I could make a good guess in some cases based on names or other circumstances. I never hear them talk about religion, except when it is an offhand comment like how someone saw so-and-so at church, or how someone can't make a meeting or trip because their church is having some event that day. Of course, I have only been with this troop for five months. With the Cub Scout pack of which I was a leader for 2.5 years, we did sometimes have announcements encouraging the boys to earn religious awards, mainly on those very rare occasions when a boy had earned one. I did know what religion or denomination some of the pack and den leaders were, because I had more opportunity to get to know some of them and go to their homes. (And the one or two other Jewish names are usually fairly obvious, though that is not always a sure bet either.) Discussions among Webelos leaders and parents of selecting a troop also often invoke passing references to religious affiliation, because some troops are chartered to churches of they are members.

 

But in the units of which I have been a part, as an adult, overall religion is rarely mentioned except for brief standard prayers and graces, as I have said. My son told me that grace was said before meals at summer camp, and I suspect that again it was a very brief generic grace.

 

My whole point about this really is that I think that the practices I have described seem to have served the needs of the members of these units. Otherwise, they probably would have been changed. The needs of other units might require different practices.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

I have an intense dislike for "the Great Scoutmaster" prayers. Who are we praying to? Baden-Powell?

 

No, I'm not a bible thumping Christian. I just want the prayer to be to someone. God, Allah, Brahma, it really doesn't matter.