Paper Eagles

[captainron14 11]

Yarrow you hit the nail on the head!

First of all, I know that there are Scouts that are capable of earning their Eagle at/or before 13 ON THEIR OWN.

But I think we can agree that the majority of boys are not. Of the later, there are those whose Parents will not accept this (for what ever reason).They seem to want the Eagle more than their son. They are the ones who make their son earn MBs (one or more per month or else). Or sign off badges themselves. Arrange and Plan Eagle Projects and pressure Eagle Boards for passage.

When he was a Cub we would have ALL his Badges (Parents signed them ALL off) This attitude continued into Scouts.

To someone from the outside looking in, the boy is an Eagle. The papers say he passed the requirements. So, it must be so. But to those in the know, He is a PAPER EAGLE.

 

This title is not just for younger Scouts. It can apply to the Scout who for what ever reason, waited too long (soon to be 18). Again the Parents step in. Along with a blind commitee (Pressured by Parents). MBs not yet earned(or started)are signed off (even though requirements are 3 months to earn)the month before turning 18. The Eagle project planned and organized by Parents (all the Scout has to do is show up), as is the write up.

It gets even worse when the District & Council look the other way as to not offend anyone.

The bigest looser in this is the Scout. He learned nothing except how to cheat.

His leaders were a poor example, and they let him down. As did his Parents. For all the trouble, they should have bought a Eagle Medal from Ebay. It would mean the same thing, a "Paper Eagle". It means nothing to him, but everything to the Parents.

No mater the Scout is 12 1/2 or soon to be 18 the result is the same.

 

This is not an isolated thing. I have seen this happen and have talked to many others who have also. I sat on a Eagle board much like the examples above, when I voiced my concerns, they postponed the board until later (with out me). I was not asked again.

 

I won't get into "is 13 too early", "Le Voyageur" nailed it earlier in the thread.

 

My point is, why can't National tighten up? (Or direct the Councils/Districts to)

I have been told that even when The Eagle packet is rejected, when apealed, it is rarely turned down.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy?

What about his Leaders and Parents?

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

So, Ron, how do you propose that National and/or the councils tighten up on "paper Eagles"? What, specificaly, would you like to see done?

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[captainron14 11]

Things I would suggest?

 

1.Require MB counselors be not only registered w/BSA but also certified/recomended by someone (expert?)in the field. Also parents not allowed to be counselors to their own kids.

Limit what MBs the SM (or ASM) can counsel.

Outlaw MB "Pow-wows" AKA "Sweat Shops", where scouts go to a place and in one day as a group earn MBs.

 

2.Have some way to certify time in rank. (A national database could do this)Also in Leadership Positions. Reduce type of Positions that qualifies as Leadership (Scribe, Quartermaster, Historian, etc.)

Require the uniform as part of being active in your Troop/Team, etc.

 

3.Require THREE "Formal" Boards of Review.

a. One at District (Scout Present)

b. One at Council (Scout Present)

c. One at National (Scout not Present)

Have only ONE Adult member from his unit be on each local board (Non-Voting member).

Record the minutes of each board of review, questions asked and the Scouts responses. This would be forwarded to the next level after finishing each Board. Require detailed

questions (and responses)on his Scouting background, experiences and Eagle Project.

Require a Correct Uniform for the Scout to go before the Board.

 

4. Establish tight controls on Eagle Project approval. Require minimum amount of hours. Certify Scout Leadership involved. Monitor Parent involvement. (OK to help, not do)

Have three level pre-approval and post- approval.

a. Unit

b. District

c. Council

For the District & Council have the same makeup as the actual Eagle Board (ie. only ONE unit member, non-voting).

 

5. Consider having age requirements for senior ranks (ie. Life 14-15, Eagle 15-16 years old?)

 

6. If National "Kicks Back" the Eagle Packet and is appealed, require a pannel of three people totaly seperate from the National Board review it prior to the original board.

(No automatic approval on appeal)

 

7. Have the all above items "Requirements" not optional items.

 

Mabey I am going over the hill on this but in this era of "PC" and "Positive Self Image"

I am tired of "lowering the bar" and giving them a pass just so we don't "Rock the Boat" or to show tolerence.

I am tired of seeing "Eagle Mills" as well as MB "Sweat shops". These "PAPER EAGLES" make a Mockery of what the rank of Eagle stands for.

Hope I was not too extream?

 

 

 

 

[JimmyD 10]

I was reading this and i noticed a couple of things with captainron14's Requirments.

 

 

 

1.Require MB counselors be not only registered w/BSA but also certified/recomended by someone (expert?)in the field.

 

I think this does apply to some merit badges but you can't do it with all of them. Like cooking should a Chef be required to teach the merit badge i know a lot of italians who aren't professional chefs buyt can cook good. Also Basketry the same goes. This would take up way too much time and Distrci Merit badge counselors lists would become paper thin. Boys would have to make parents go all over the district/council to find these councelors if they even exist.

 

Also parents not allowed to be counselors to their own kids.

 

Agreed never had my dad sign naything off for me.

 

 

Limit what MBs the SM (or ASM) can counsel.

Outlaw MB "Pow-wows" AKA "Sweat Shops", where scouts go to a place and in one day as a group earn MBs.

 

People can be talented in many different catagories. I'm sure District/council does check the lists out to make sure people don't teach ever single merit badge in the book. Its fine as it is. "pow-wows" are fine the only take place once a year and it gives boys a new opprunity to rtake a merit badge that iusn't normally offered in their area. Like i said before People can't be drving the boys all around district/council to get their merit badges.

 

2.Have some way to certify time in rank.

BOR dates ceritfy these. Also asked on eag;e applications so i don't think they could get through without the 6 months.

 

(A national database could do this)Also in Leadership Positions. Reduce type of Positions that qualifies as Leadership (Scribe, Quartermaster, Historian, etc.)

 

Why? Not everyone can be APL, PL ASLP, TG, SPL. How are the others suppsoe to get through the ranks then?

Require the uniform as part of being active in your Troop/Team, etc.

Our troop defines active as in What you do. You'd have to go into more detail before i can comment on this.

 

3.Require THREE "Formal" Boards of Review.

a. One at District (Scout Present)

b. One at Council (Scout Present)

c. One at National (Scout not Present)

Have only ONE Adult member from his unit be on each local board (Non-Voting member).

Record the minutes of each board of review, questions asked and the Scouts responses. This would be forwarded to the next level after finishing each Board. Require detailed

questions (and responses)on his Scouting background, experiences and Eagle Project.

Require a Correct Uniform for the Scout to go before the Board.

 

Vast majority of scout leaders are voluntary. This is way too much for District and Council to handle becuase they have other issues to deal with. Right now just having 1 Rep. from district to come in is fine. I'm sure national is already swamped with stuff. I think people's words need to be trusted becuase this method seems to me as if no one's word can be trusted saying "yes he's ready".

 

4. Establish tight controls on Eagle Project approval. Require minimum amount of hours.

 

Minimum of hours should be required.

 

Certify Scout Leadership involved. Monitor Parent involvement. (OK to help, not do)

Have three level pre-approval and post- approval.

a. Unit

b. District

c. Council

For the District & Council have the same makeup as the actual Eagle Board (ie. only ONE unit member, non-voting).

 

Once again this takes too much time to do this. Com. already approves of it and the district rep. signs it off (reviews it). I don't think the com. would go and send it to distrcit with it being a bad project. Like i said before council and district have way too much to do on their hands.

 

5. Consider having age requirements for senior ranks (ie. Life 14-15, Eagle 15-16 years old?)

 

Although i don't think being 13 year old is ready to be an eagle i might be wrong but i encourage the boys to advance as fast as they can. Its not fair for people to have to wait another 2 years for something becuase they might lsoe interest already.

 

6. If National "Kicks Back" the Eagle Packet and is appealed, require a pannel of three people totaly seperate from the National Board review it prior to the original board.

(No automatic approval on appeal)

 

Takes too much time like i said before.

 

7. Have the all above items "Requirements" not optional items.

 

Won't ever happen.

 

Mabey I am going over the hill on this but in this era of "PC" and "Positive Self Image"

I am tired of "lowering the bar" and giving them a pass just so we don't "Rock the Boat" or to show tolerence.

I am tired of seeing "Eagle Mills" as well as MB "Sweat shops". These "PAPER EAGLES" make a Mockery of what the rank of Eagle stands for.

Hope I was not too extream

 

 

I myself thought the eagle rank was hard to get. If any boy who received the eagle said it wasn't hard they shouldn't be eagles. The requirments right now are hard enough as it can get. In order for your policies to axtually work you would need to double or triple all the volunteers in the BSA and double or triple "payed professionals" and make way too many people to fill out forms.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"pow-wows" are fine the only take place once a year and it gives boys a new opprunity to rtake a merit badge that iusn't"

 

"Take" a merit badge? That the foundation of the problem. Merit badges shouldn't be taken like a class, they need to be earned. I talk to Scouts who go through "merit badge classes" and most of the time they haven't learned squat.

 

A Scout should pick a merit badge because it interests him or it involves something that he does in his regular non-Scout life. He then should pursue the requirements on his own, seeking help from the counselor if he needs it.

[KoreaScouter 13]

In my opinion, piling on a lot of other rules and processing requirements will only make this more difficult for volunteer Scouters trying to make this system work. For example, with 40,000 eagles a year, even a records-only BOR at national means somebody will have to do over 100 per DAY, every day of the year, including weekends and holidays. Who would do such a thing? What kind of quality review will these applications get?

 

To me, the key to making this work and keeping it aboveboard lies with the DC and the District Advancement Chair. Those guys know the units, the leaders, and should know the Scouts who are knocking on the door, too. They know who's cutting corners and who isn't. They know if projects are viable or if they aren't. The "traffic cop" function, if we need to have one, should be at the District, no place else. If those guys are involved and participating like they should be, we shouldn't need minimum project hours or 3 BORs.

 

KS

[JimmyD 10]

FOG no one makes these boys go to pow-wows to earn them they go becuase they are interested in them. No kid should be forced to take a merit badge that they don't want to do. if there not learning anything i'm sure the kids can go to another adult and inform they aren't donig a good job as a counselor. If you would go and throw out the classes. In Boy Scout summer camp you can't learn much after your first year. Our summer camp has a first year program and then merit badge classes in the morning and afternoon. It would just be a waste of time to go up their. SUmmer camp is to go up there and take and do things you wouldn't normally do.

[Bob White 20]

Where to start...

There have been a lot of comments about Young eagles not being able to do basic scout skills, consider these points.

1)If the learning hasn't learned then the teacher hasn't taught. When scouts of any rank cannot do the skills that were required to get to that rank adult leaders have no one to point the finger of blame at then themselves. We are ther to make sure the program is adminitered effectively, not the boys.

 

2) Who on this board remembers everything they have ever learned if they do not practice it or put it to practical use from time to time.

 

 

Next there is the notion of scout leaders as babysitters. No one has the power to make you behave as a babysitter but you. If you don't want to be a babysitter then don't behave as one. It really is just that easy.

 

The thought of making Eagle tougher intrigues me. The most scouts that have ever reached Eagle is just under 5% of the total rergistered Boy Scouts. How much tougher does it need to be?

I am amazed that with all the people that have been named as 'should be reponsible for maintaining higher standards' no one is mentioning the most responsible person of all, the Chartered Organization Representative. A COR how takes the responsibility of selecting and approving Scoutmasters seriously can have the greatest effect on the quality of advancement than anyone else.

 

"Summer camp is to go up there and take and do things you wouldn't normally do."

I'm not sure there is anything in the program that supports this notion. I think about the things at our local council camp; fishing, swimming, rock climbing, archery, rifle/shotgun, boating, hiking, campiong, merit badge opportunities etc. There is not a single thing there that a scout cannot do within a 30-minute drive of there home elsewhere.

 

The purpose of summercamp is to enjoy a fun week outdoors in a scouting environment where the boys can learn, socialize and grow mentally physically and emotionally with other scouts. Isn't it?

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sst3rd 129]

Bob,

 

You and several other regulars approach things consistently. The program is there. Execute it. Train the youth leaders, etc..

I enjoy reading these threads, but can't post because I get beat to the punch.

There truly is nothing worth arguing about, but I like the dicussions.

Use the program. A point to make about the percentages. About 20 years ago, I was told the percentage of Eagles was just above 2%. If it has steadily increased over the years, I would prefer to credit this increase to more quality programs and increased encouragement. Eagle mills are a great excuse for the increase and do exist, but I would also prefer to credit the increase to more dedicated and trained adult leaders.

 

sst3rd

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"they go becuase they are interested in them. No kid should be forced to take a merit badge that they don't want to do."

 

You must live in Pleasantville. I'd bet that the majority of these kids are there because their parents said, "Hey look, you can knock out a couple more merit badges."

 

"if there not learning anything i'm sure the kids can go to another adult and inform they aren't donig a good job as a counselor."

 

Oh sure, a bunch of 12 year olds are going to do this. A couple years ago, an Indian Lore counselor was doing a crappy job. Did the Scouts care? Not at all, they thought that it was great that they didn't have to do all the "hard stuff."

 

"In Boy Scout summer camp you can't learn much after your first year."

 

I don't know about that . . . a wimpy as some merit badge sessions are at summer camp, you can continue to do new things at summer camp. One Scout told me this summer that this was his fifth summer camp and he was having a ball and still doing new things.

 

[Bob White 20]

Thanks sst3rd

Bob

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"You and several other regulars approach things consistently. The program is there. Execute it. Train the youth leaders, etc.."

 

That sounds wonderful but too many parents stick their noses into the process. They become merit badge counselors for their sons and just gloss over them. If the son has a POR and can't do it, the parent does it and lets the son take the credit.

 

Society gets goofy when teenagers are involved. First we're told that they are "young adults" and need to be allowed to make decisions about their lives such as smoking, having sex, and what foul music they listen to. But when they screw up and some one says that they need to take responsibility for their actions, we are told, "they're kids, they make mistakes." Too bad that mistake weighed 8 lbs 4 ounces or that mistake cost someone their life.

 

"I would prefer to credit this increase to more quality programs and increased encouragement."

 

It is too bad that there is no way to quantify why there are more Eagles.

 

Encouragement is an interesting idea. "Go son go! Work hard, son." is encouragement. What I've heard parents say far too many times is, "I won't let him get his drivers license until he gets his Eagle."

 

It seems that many parents push the son toward the Eagle for the same reasons that they push their children to be sports stars. The parent wants the gratification of being able to brag about their child.

 

Too many parents do the same thing with academics as well. They want to brag about thier child's accomplishments. My son gets mostly Bs with a couple As thrown in. I'm sure that he could get straight As but it isn't worth the cost. I'd have to ride him constantly, my stess level would go up, his stress level would go up and no one would be happy.

 

[Bob White 20]

There is a story about a man out working in his yard when a stranger walked up and said, "I'm thinking about moving into this neighborhood, what are the people like around here?" to which the man replied, "what are they like where you live now?. "Oh", said the stranger "they're a great bunch, very freindly and always looking out for each other, the children are all friends and we really enjoy ouselves". "Well, said the man, I think you will find the folks hereto be the same".

 

The next day the man was back working in his yard when another stranger walked up. "Excuse me, he said, I'm thinking about moving into this neighborhood and was wondering what the people were like?" Again the man asked "What were they like in your old neighborhood? "Oh a horrible group" said the stranger. No one spoke to each other, why I never even met the guy across the street. The kids are loud and no one gets along." "too bad" said the man, "I think you will find the folks here are just the same."

 

Your world is what you make it.

 

Bob White

 

Hmmmmm I don't know what made me think of that old story.

[JimmyD 10]

"It seems that many parents push the son toward the Eagle for the same reasons that they push their children to be sports stars. The parent wants the gratification of being able to brag about their child."

 

I thought parents wanted too see their kids to suceed thats why they encourage them.

 

"You must live in Pleasantville. I'd bet that the majority of these kids are there because their parents said, "Hey look, you can knock out a couple more merit badges.""

 

Well all of ouyr kids when they go to these pow wows always have a good time so i must be living in pleasantville then. They here it from their friends who have good time and then they come along plain and simple.

 

 

"Oh sure, a bunch of 12 year olds are going to do this. A couple years ago, an Indian Lore counselor was doing a crappy job. Did the Scouts care? Not at all, they thought that it was great that they didn't have to do all the "hard stuff."

 

Actually a couple of years ago Art craft director was bascally "handing" out the art merit badges and they told the leaders of our troop and they did notify the camp director. So yes 12 year olds do do that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"I thought parents wanted too see their kids to suceed thats why they encourage them."

 

As I said elsewhere, there is a big difference between encouraging and pushing.

 

"Well all of ouyr kids when they go to these pow wows always have a good time so i must be living in pleasantville then. They here it from their friends who have good time and then they come along plain and simple."

 

Good time? Is that how you measure the effectiveness of a merit badge program? Do the Scouts actually learn anything? Do they retain any of the information?

 

Merit badge universities ("pow-wows" where you live) defeat one of the principle purposes of the merit badge which is to recognize the Scout for things that he does outside of the Scouting arena.

 

My observation of summer camp merit badges is much the same, it is just a way to fill time at camp. Slap together a basket, don't worry about doing it right. Just do it. Leather work? You can finish it in a day at summer camp.