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YP and G2SS Questions

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Silver Shark,

 

I read this as FOG did, but your clarification made sense.

 

I believe the history of this goes back to Exploring when they did have Area, Regional & National conferances. As such, the Advisors let appoved youth in their car drive on certain legs of the trip to help the fatigue factor. Today that would usually be applied to OA events.

 

Until now, I never re-examined it. Thanks

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I am glad FOG stands by his opinion, now if he would take a couple steps closer to the the truth.

 

Here is what rule 4 is saying.

 

With the exception of youth memebrs all drivers must be 18 years of age and licensed. So a 16 or 17-year-old non-scouter may not drive scouts on a scouting event.

 

If the driver is a registered youth member, they may drive providing there is a 21-year-old or older adult in charge of the trip, and providing they meet a few extra requirements that an adult driver is not required to meet.

 

Bob White

 

 

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There seems to be some misunderstanding about my posting "WAY TO GO GO LAURIE."

Mark asked for some advise, as he didn't have access to the guidelines. He said that he wanted it quickly.

Laurie, was kind enough to not only find them, she copied them word for word.

My meaning of Way To Go, was meant as "GOOD JOB"

I do hope that it has not been read in any other way.

Eamonn

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I was the one who wondered, and so I posted a PM to Eamonn just to see if I had done something wrong--due to all caps. That is all, for that usually indicates shouting, and I do know that much is lost in black and white type as we post. Eamonn has much to offer, and somehow sarcasm didn't seem to fit, but I asked just to be sure I hadn't been offensive in some way. As I told him, it is hard to know at times because simple things can turn into an argument. Have a good day all!

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Can anyone confirm or deny what I mentioned earlier, that regardless of who can drive what and where, that for an 18-year-old "Scout" (he is really an adult leader even if not yet so stated on the charter) to drive in a car alone with a Scout is a violation of YP? That is how it seems to me. It is one on one contact between an adult and an unrelated youth for an extended period of time. And that's no good, regardless of how many days or years the driver has been an adult. Right? I do not specifically remember what if anything was said about drivers and passengers during my YP training.

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IMOHO.

Two deep leadership is Two deep leadership.

If a person is over 18 and is not a youth member (Not a crew member.)

There ought to be two leaders in the car.

As we or at least me, knows this will not always happen.

At times the best we can do is go for no one on one. Try and keep two Scouts in the car at all times.Or keep two for as long as you can.

I know this is not what the guide says.

But .....

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I am in agreement with eamonn on this. I would personally err on the side of caution. In reading the G2SS, I thought it seemed best to have a second adult in the car. And unless I'm misunderstanding this, it seems that the 18-yr-old can drive if in the company of one 21 years old or older. Since convoys are discouraged, that implys (IMPLYS--for I don't know for sure) that another adult would be in the car. Clear as mud? Sometimes these rules, regulations, guidelines--whatever name is attached to them--can be general enough to be vague.

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You are right to be concerned NJ. I PMd Laurie prior to your posting and shared the same concern. If the 18-yr-old was a registered ASM he could not be one-on-one with the scout.

 

However, since he is not a registered adult at this time, and has aged out as a youth member, it is my understanding that he is not in violation of the YP policies.

 

Bob White

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We use the minimum of 3 persons in the vehicle in our troop. We've never had an opportunity to have more than 1 adult in the vehicle. (Never enough drivers to do it.)

 

Laurie, I see the 21, and 18 rule that you speak of as not necessarily having to be in the same car, but on the same trip, since this is the minimum for 2 deep leadership on an outing. I also see the 16 year old, with the proper qualifications the same way, but have never had anyone under 18 drive on a trip before, and hope I never have to.

 

The convoy thing just baffles me though, unless they're just talking about the C.W. McCall song type of Convoy.

 

One way or another though, you're right... It's as clear as mud.

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Well, now this raises another issue. It is my understanding that you do NOT need to have 2 adults in the car. What you need is to not have a 1-on-1 situation (unless the Scout in the car with you is your own son.) Meaning, one adult can drive two or more Scouts. Otherwise, my son's new troop would have multiple YP violations on every trip. No car has more than one adult. In fact, on the one camping trip I have driven to so far (other than summer camp where it was just my son in the car), my son decided (to my annoyance) that he wanted to ride with another boy in his father's car, leaving me to drive 3 other boys, none of whom were my son. That's OK, isn't it? There was never any 1-on-1 in any car.

 

Now, Bob, the situation of the 18-year-old who has not yet been registered as an ASM is one that I have seen discussed here and elsewhere. I have seen conflicting answers. Your answer makes sense up to a point: He is no longer a youth member and he is not an adult leader. But, then what is he doing on a Scouting function at all? He is still on the charter as a youth, but he is not a youth, he is an adult. Is he even a member of the troop at that point? Or is he there just as a "friend" of others on the trip? I thought that was a no-no for insurance purposes; an unregistered parent on a trip would be ok, but not an unregistered friend. Right?

 

However, that would NOT be my answer. My answer would be that he IS a member of the troop, but since he is no longer eligible to be a youth member, he has to be considered an adult, even though he is not yet registered as an adult. At the very least, he would be considered an adult for YP purposes.

 

I have seen this issue discussed so many times, I have to think that the BSA has published an official answer somewhere, but I have never seen it.

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Bob, I missed your PM, but I am curious to hear follow ups to NJ's questions.

 

My understanding is no 1-on-1. ie MB counseling. A boy takes a buddy, but the MBC doesn't seem to (unless I'm missing something?) need another adult present.

 

Time for me to sit back and learn something more. I am now in a muddle.

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Here is the deal Laurie, although MBCs are registered with the local council they are not registered members of the BSA. They do not pay a fee, they do not have the same priviledges or protections as registered members.

 

The scout who is meeting with a MB counselor is doing so on his own time. It is not a troop, or patrol event. It is recommended that the scout take a buddy (either youth or adult) to the MB session so that he will have greater personal protection. The BSA recommends to the MBC to have a buddy or make sure the scout has a buddy for the same reason. But since this is a personal activity the BSA has no real authority to tell either party what to do.

 

A unit situation is different. That is a bonafide scout event and is responsible for following the rules and regulation of the BSA.

 

Hope this helps,

Bob White

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Bob says:

 

The BSA recommends to the MBC to have a buddy or make sure the scout has a buddy for the same reason.

 

I don't think "recommends" is correct. I copied this from an online version of the Merit Badge counselor application:

 

As a merit badge counselor, I agree to:

Follow the requirements of the merit badge, making no deletions or additions, ensuring that the advancement standards are fair and uniform for all scouts.

Have a Scout and his buddy present at all instructional sessions.

Renew my registration annually if I plan to continue as a merit badge counselor.

 

That looks mandatory to me. Also look at:

 

http://www.usscouts.org/boyscouts/MBCounseling.html

 

It says among other things that the Scout "must always be accompanied by a buddy." That sounds mandatory to me. I do realize that the latter document may not be an official BSA document, but it looks like it is based on official documents, and usscouts.org is a very reputable source as far as I am aware. What I do find curious is this document's explanation of the reason for requiring the buddy system. It basically says that the merit badge work is more enjoyable when the Scouts work together. If (as I suspect) the real reason is Youth Protection, why don't they just say so? Normally the BSA is not shy about giving the exact reason for YP rules. The YP guidelines clearly explain that it is not just a numbers game, but that there is a reason for the numbers and combinations of people who are supposed to be present, and what that reason is. Assuming that the buddy rule for MB counselors is there for YP purposes, I think they do the counselor a disservice by not clearly saying so.

 

NJ-no-longer-a-Cub Scouter (just a Scouter now, and also a certified YP training facilitator, though I have not yet facilitated.)

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Ok, I'll meet you in the middle on this one:). This is a long explanaition so I apologize in advance.

 

First I want to state that I fully endorse the practice of having a buddy at a MB session, and I don't want anyone to misinterpret or misrepresent that stand.

 

The Boy Scout Handbook pg187 instructs the scout to

"along with another scout, a relative, or a friend, set-up an attend your first session withthe merit badge counselor.

 

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual page 26 says

Scout Buddy System

"A Scout must have a buddy with him at each meeting with a merit badge couselor. A Scout's buddy can be another parent or guardian, a brother or sister, or a relative or friend.

 

The pamphlet 'A Guide for a Merit Badge Counselor' says

What Do I Agree to Do?

(second item)

"Have a buddy present with each scout at all instructional sessions."

 

The Youth Protection Policies which are part of the the Guide to Safe Scouting say NOTHING about merit badge sessions.

 

So here we go.

First as I stated before the MBC is not required to have a second adult.

 

Second, I was wrong to say "recommends", some of the manuals that address this issue say 'must'. But it is a tiger with no teeth. There is no negative repercussions for either the MB counselor or the scout for not doing this. That is why I said recommends.

 

The responsibility to follow this procedure is on the scout. It is the scout who must show up with a buddy. As NJ pointed out scouts do have more fun learning with others, BUT the purpose of "the buddy system" is safety as explained on page 57 of the Boy Scout Handbook. The buddy for merit badges need not be a scout, or anyone connected with scouts or anyone even interested in the topic. It just needs to be "somebody".

 

Although the merit badge counselor should see that the scout has a buddy nothing in the instructional guide to the MBC says they cannot meet with the scout if he does not bring a buddy, and having a buddy is not listed in the requirement of any merit badge.

 

As I said a tiger with no teeth.

 

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual states that "every" merit badge counselor "must" be trained in the Aims and Methods of Scouting and the Advancement policies. However what unit, District or Council does this. We did a District wide MB training that was to last 90-miutes over 250 counselors were invited and only 5 showed up. How many of you even knew that there was a pamplet teaching units how to train counselors "Merit Badge Counseling Orientation" or a 6 page booklet for counselors called "A Guide for Merit Badge Counseling" (#34532) that is 'recommended' for all MBCs to have?

 

So to summarize...

Buddy system good

MBC training bad

Bob White half-good but not half-bad

2nd adult at sessions- not required

YP policy regarding MB sessions- not existing

 

Your humble servant,

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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