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Girl Scouts On the Hot Seat

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I agree in that I always say all human organizations are inherently flawed...I am sure the Apostles had their issues as well. And I am sure that abuse of all kinds happens in all sorts of organizations; but it was the RESPONSE that troubled me. I saw this close up at the Diocese level; suffice to say doing what was right was a minority opinion.


Hey I work in government so I know what CYA is.


Since I have left I keep getting tagged by my friends as a bitter ex-Catholic; I am not really. Methodism is pretty close but make me think too much. But there are things I miss.


I think the whole Catholic-Girl Scout stuff is just silly.

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Boycotting the government? Please show reference to that sermon.


Now, I have heard of sermons saying to express your displeasure as a Catholic to the new health care mandates, but what is wrong with that? Is it wrong to express displeasure with the government? Is that boycotting?


Also, I haven't heard of where Catholic troops can't do exciting things? Do you have an example of this?




The rhetoric in this thread seems to be getting too heated, and I apologize if I've contributed to that. I won't be adding anything else to this thread. I hope you ask badenP to retract the insult of "you backwood hick." It is inappropriate for this board.

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Tampa Turtle - I always hope cases like you mention are from the 1980s or earlier. From about the 1990s onward, there has been a strong emphasis on handling such situations correctly. It wasn't always done correctly though such as the 1989 Little Rascal's day care case or the early recovered memory cases. But organizations should have been moving from CYA to let's do the right thing, especially churches.

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I didn't say they couldn't. All I said is, if you are showing fears to not have any relationships with groups that show a support for other groups you don't think your catholic CO would want you to associate with (even though that is not the main focus of their organization) you will loose out on getting to go to SOME great things..


I think I have made myself quite clear in past posts as to the fact this reference comes from the silliness of what they are questioning the GSUSA about.. And your past post where you referenced your fears, and suggested the BSA does not have any relationship to the Sierra Club..


If you can not put 2+2 together and come out with 4.. Not my problem..


As for the two sermons I mentioned, remember I did not state they were examples of Hell and damnation.. Just not sermons of love and forgiveness.. It just means Catholic sermons are not all warm and fuzzy inside..


Do not know if the boycott the government was in the news, but it was a week that all priests were to give a sermon on it.. Maybe some priest just Read the letter while others did a full sermon, maybe what I heard of it was more vocal in their condemnation then other preists? But many defenately go a sermon to stand up against the goverment, protest the government or Rally up against the government..)


Here is one about the letter.. In this article.. It says "We can not, We will not comply with this unjust law." Isn't that the same as Boycott?? I mean you can't Boycott a whole government (unless you leave it), but they are saying to not follow this law, be criminally un-lawful in not following this law, (Boycott this law)..




My husband got his during a funeral.. You know.. So sad that so-and-so, is dead.. But the real issue is the governments attitude over health care wanting to offer contraceptions! So let me preach to you on that.. My mother-in-law got it during her normal church service.. We discussed it on a past thread in this forum.. And one or two other people said they got the same sermon.. Sounds like you too got some flavor of that sermon.. Did you truely feel the Love??


I also can find you news articles on the Bishop comparing Obama to Hitler & Stalin.. Here are a few links..










(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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If you do not hear about hellfire and damnation in the mass, then I think you are either not paying attention to the Eucharistic and other prayers used


Yah, hmmm.... well, at least that's a testable claim.


Here's the U.S. Catholic bishop's interpretation of da meaning of their "Eucharistic Prayer"




Here's the actual text




Not a word about hellfire or damnation in the entire thing. Da language is pretty archaic eh? ;) But da closest yeh get to hellfire or damnation is this:


You formed man in your own image and entrusted the whole world to his care, so that in serving you alone, the Creator, he might have dominion over all creatures.


And when through disobedience he had lost your friendship, you did not abandon him to the domain of death. For you came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find you. Time and again you offered them covenants and through the prophets taught them to look forward to salvation.


And you so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time you sent your Only Begotten Son to be our Savior.


So the evidence refutes your claim, BadenP.


I'm sorry to hear of da behavior of your minister when yeh were young, and like any good fellow the behavior of da administrator I find infuriatin'. Better a millstone be tied around their necks... To be fair, though, I'm old enough to remember those days, eh? And for better or worse, da culture at the time was that takin' such matters to public trial was the wrong thing to do for kids. Even now, with lots more protections, it's a very hard thing, eh? Poor handlin' of these things wasn't just a Catholic issue, it was an issue for all youth organizations at the time. Only difference is that da Catholic Church and the BSA are large organizations that kept records. :(



(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Ya learn something every day. I'd never seen all the different versions put side by side. Thank you Beavah. That was really cool to see.


I still miss the more simple version that was established after Vatican II and used around 1975. http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm It's consistent with the new version but uses fewer sylabols. Easier to participate in after waking up from the sermon. ;)

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It says "We can not, We will not comply with this unjust law." Isn't that the same as Boycott??


Nah. It's what's called "civil disobedience". It's a time-honored and ethical way of respondin' to unjust laws.


I'm not sure why da Catholic church advocatin' non-violent civil disobedience should be an issue for anybody. It's a personal or corporate act of conscience, and an effective form of protest in a democracy.


Now, da bishop runnin' afoul of Godwin's Law is kinda funny. But again, I don't think it's fair to judge an entire faith or group of people based on da actions of outlier individuals. Especially in a case like this where fellow Catholic leaders are callin' him to task on their own. After all, if the entire USA were judged based on the words of some of our congresspeople, I don't reckon we'd fare as well as da Catholic Church. :)




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OK.. Civil Disobedience it is.. Either way, it is not a sermon that is all about Love, Peace and forgiveness.. Sorry, my church would never tell me to follow them into civil disobedience.. As stated the last time it was discussed, churches I went to, may have called upon current news to bring the word of the bible into current relevent times.. To help guide us to do better, to use it as a lesson.. But never was it used as a political rally to insight us to stand against a group of people or a govenment.


Especially in a case like this where fellow Catholic leaders are callin' him to task on their own.

Would that be the ale carte Catholic, is professors for Notre Dame consider Catholic Leaders or College Leaders who may or may not be catholic (and perhaps ale carte).. Liberals are calling him to task, and some ale-carte Catholics are not to happy with him.. But, from all news reports the Catholic Church Leaders are defending the Bishops' Hitler, Stalin comment.. Calling it a Historical Reference that he need not apoligize for.. He might have gotten away with that defense if he just talked about the health care and said "these practices are similar to what was going on during the time of..." rather then "Obama's actions"..


Although I disagree with his outlook.. If I had to fear a Hitler regime, the group I would fear getting unjust treatment would not be the Catholics. Luckily I think our society is too enlightened to allow it to happen.. For good or bad, we are more quick to call each other out, and keep each other in check..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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I agree that a sermon inciting people to civil disobedience is not about love, peace, and forgiveness; but then I don't think a sermon should be limited to love, peace, and forgiveness. The Church has seen the fruits of 40 years of nothing but peace and love sermons and it ain't pretty!


That said, it's hard to see how a sermon on Obamacare is appropriate for a funeral. That is not really a time to get political -- perhaps the priest thought it was a good way to reach people who aren't normally at Mass. That's the most charitable thing that comes to mind.

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Well it was more Fred who stated I grew up with a church that preached love, forgiveness, service and prayer.


So you would add that yes, your church it's ok for the church to incite people for political agendas.. This is where we disagree. The effects of 9/11 affected us all. For a friend of mine, it returned her to the church. For me it pushed me away from the church. Maybe because most Holy wars are in history, and this was a wakeup that currently you can take a religious group and incite them to follow someone's (not God's) political agenda..


Using current events to drive home points, to give us role models to follow, and examples of what not to follow.. That is fine. That is gently showing people the right path, which even if they follow, they will do so in their own unique way..


Not sermons on Hell and Damnation.. But sermons to Politically incite religious groups.. At least to me is a much scarier proposition. Makes me very happy there is more and more stay-at-home Christians, athiests and agnostics as well as that those who are of an organized religion, are at least of many, many various religions..

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Hmm, the abolitionist movement (that eliminated slavery in the U.S.) and the civil rights movement have roots in churches. I agree that in most things churches should be apolitical. But in terms of things that the church views as major moral wrongs, they shouldn't.

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