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fboisseau

Youth Protection Guidlines

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I still have not seen any agreement on what the policy stays on my posted situtations. BobWhite or dsteele I would sure like to have your opinion on this.

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The Guide to Safe Scouting does not require two-deep leadership for any of the five scenarios you listed at the top of this thread. I have never seen in any BSA publication a requirement for two deep leadership for any Scouting activity except trips and outings.

 

That doesnt mean you should feel free to plunge ahead by yourself. There are lots of good reasons for conducting Scouting activities with 2 or more adults. But you wont be violating BSA policy solely because there is no second adult present, trips and outings excluded.

 

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I have looked at this string a couple of times and want to revisit the YP training tape and the SM Leader Specific training, to be sure, but I recall that both those souces say what the Cub Leader specific training says and that is you need two adults at meetings, the only exception being patrol meetings.

 

So I will check the videos and get back to you.

 

However.....even if they do not say it is required I would NEVER have an activity outside of a patrol, without two adults.

 

It is nearly impossible to avoid one on one contact at some point when a second adult is not around. Plus it is poor emergency preparedness to only have one adult at a den or troop meeting.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting describes Two Deep Ladership as Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout.

I would never consider being in public, such as at a McDonalds, as way to meet the requirements of two deep leadership. You need to have a second adult who is focused on the activity at hand not just a causual passerby. Some adult sitting at the same restaurant or whatever the situation is not familiar with what is appropriate or required behaviour for scouting, they aren't paying attention to the comings and goings of the youth or adult. This kind of casual, unknown witnessing is not going to be able to protect you or the youth in a YP situation.

 

Why wouyld anyone look for short cuts or "minimal" protection for their scouts or themselves? two deep leadership is a "minimum" protection. I would never seek to loer that even if the letter of the rule did not require it. Patrol activities excepted.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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One thing that is emphasized in our YPT is that the two deep leadership is also for the leaders proctection. In our litigious society, it is better to have the protection of two "witnessess" involved with the activities. This was brought up and agreed upon principle, in addition to the stated YPT guidelines by the Asst. D.A., DYFYS rep, Def. Att. and S.E. at the YPT training seminar. The reasoning here was that kids sometimes lie and it is better to have another responsible adult (Like BW pointed out, trained or the parent of an involved scout) as a witness to the scouting activity. there where tons of reasons and scenerios presented on how and why kids lie. It was the Asst. D.A. who strongly made the point that the judiciary regards children's testimony as suspect, as the children are typically easily swayed by their questioneers and to avoid getting into this mess in the first place, prudence dictates having two adults.

Another way to look at this is as the buddy system. After discussing the reasons of the buddy system with kids, I always let them know that my favorite reason for the buddy system is to share the fun times with a buddy. Having the two deep leadership allows the leaders to have a buddy of their own to share the fun.

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BobWhite,

I am not trying to lower the minimal legal requirement, I am trying to find out what that minimal legal requirement is. I always will advocate that a leader has 2 deep leadership at a meeting for various reason's including safety. What I want to know is if 2 deep is the legal limit, which means if it can't be met for extra ordinary reason the leader must abort the meeting at that point and send the scouts home, or if it is not the legal limit, which means the meeting could continue to its logical conclusion.

 

One example of these extra ordinary reason is the following true event that happen when I was a assistant den leader. The den leader's, at the time, son stepped on a peice of glass 5 minutes before the meeting was to start and had to go with him to the hospital. Now luckly at that time due to the size of the wolf den (12 boys) we had 3 leaders at the meetings and so we were able to maintian 2 deep leadership. But if we could not have maintain 2 deep leadership would the rules of the BSA have required us to try to contact the parents (some of whom may not have been reachable for whatever reason) and have them pickup their kids ASAP or would the rules of BSA allowed the single leader to continue the meeting.

 

Keep in mind that one of the reasons for this post is that I have heard both positions in YP training (I have taken the video training at least 3 times and the on-line training once) and as a fairly new district Webelos leader trainer I want to make sure I have the correct information.

 

Which reminds me I should check my Webelos training material and see if it clarifies the position, but I am pretty sure it points to G2SS which so far has not been able to clarify this issue.

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fboisseau

 

I've got to go along with what both Mr. Rogan and Mr. White have stated. Whether required or not, that second adult is your insurance policy against the potential of slander from a child, or even being burnt at the stake as was the case at the Salem Witch Trials. This type of behavior has been around for a looooooong time.

 

I am not insinuating that all children are capable of this behavior. I know many have been abused over the years and it's easy to think of their protection only as this policy applies, but it is also there for the protection of honest adults.

 

Regarding you question about Weblos meetings, when my son was still in the Pack there was always the CM, the ACM, the Pack Treasurer, and the Pack Advancement Chair also available. Don't hesitate to call on any or all of them to take shifts as your second adult if needed. You are as worthy of protection as the youths that you serve.

 

Bob, just one clarification to your post. I know what you mean by the "Patrol activities excepted" statement, as we have been in agreement over it in another thread, but some others may not. Patrol activities may be void of adult leaders completely, IF, they have a plan that has been approved by the SM in advance. But, any time that you have an adult present at this activity you must have a second one.

 

 

 

 

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fboisseau --

 

Thank you for brining up the Webelos den example. One of the points about two deep leadership that is quite often overshadowed by fears of child abuse allegations and it's barriers to abuse is that another good reason for having a minimum of two adults is that if someone gets injured, one adult can remain behind and run the meeting and the other can take care of the emergency.

 

There's room in the BSA for using your head and not every rule mentioned in youth protection training is 100% about abuse.

 

From what I've seen of the BSA (and I've seen a lot of it,) if you do your best to follow the policies and use your head in emergencies, you'll be taken care of. I look at the fact in this example that you had two deep leadership at the beginning of the meeting and used your options wisely in having your "second" adult take the kid in to get the care he needs while running the meeting for the other boys.

 

Sometimes you have to make a judgement call. I was a Scoutmaster and had a kid who's parents were 1/2 hour late picking him up. My Assistant Scoutmaster had to leave and obviously I didn't know his parents were going to be late until he was the last one left.

 

Sometimes you have few options and you have to select the best one.

I was a bit nervous (considering I was a Scoutmaster and a professional scouter, I would have been toast if that kid chose to take the opportunity to accuse me of abuse.) By the way, our troop met in a church, there was no one else there but me and the Scout. I had the key to the building so I could lock up.

 

My options were --

 

Make the kid wait outside in the 20 degree air

Make me wait outside and let the kid have the run of the building (you don't know this kid. Bad idea.)

Take the kid home myself -- and have the parents think I kidnapped him and have him be able to lie about me? Don't think so.

 

What we did was call his parents, no answer. I then had him sit down and sat across from him against the other wall. He didn't know that I deliberately wasn't sitting next to him. He and I then had a scoutmaster conference and a nice little chat.

 

When his father finally showed up to pick him up, he and I had a little conversation of our own. He was never late picking him up again.

 

I'm not advocating minimizing the requirements by any means. I'm not saying you don't need two-deep leadership for meetings. I think there should always be two adults. Is it required for den meetings? I don't really know off-hand. Perhaps my stock answer when asked if a tour permit is required will illuminate how I feel about this stuff -- I usually say, "if you think you might need one, you should probably fill one out." I think it's better to take the extra time to file the proper paperwork than it is to find out the hard way that you were required to do so.

 

It applies even more strongly for two deep leadership. Why would anyone not want a second adult around? I also don't think it's entirely bad to cancel a den meeting because none of the other parents or adults could make it. You might send a message that Cub Scouting is a family affair.

 

DS

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I think I am missing something?

 

If I drive must I have another adult in the vehicle if I have another scout in the vehicle with me who is not my son?

 

If I am the last at the troop meeting and another scout is still waiting for his ride and my son is with me, must there be another adult present?

 

I thought I understood this...

 

Correct me !

 

Eagle Foot

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Hi All

 

We all agree that the best YP is two deep. That was not fboisseau's question and I wanted to understand National's intent because his question effects us at so many levels. I asked a trainer lastnight and she siad this:

 

These discussions need to include Merit Badge Counseler training because it doesn't teach 2 deep leadership, but that a scout needs a buddy.

 

TWO-DEEP leadership applies ONLY to trips and Outings.

 

YOUTH PROTECTION applies all the time.

 

TWO-DEEP says there must be 2 adults present for trips and outing.

 

YOUTH PROTECTION says that an adult must never be alone with a single Scout, not his/her son, at any time.

 

The Den and Troop Meeting would have been fine with one adult and three scouts.

 

It's kind of funny how she seem to make it sound so simple. And I am not saying this should be the final word, just what a trainer in our Council has taught.

 

I believe the best rule of thumb is to conciously stay out of situations of question.

 

Have a great day.

 

Barry

 

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I saw where the question was specific to Bob White and Desteele. I was not trying to grandstand, so please accept my apology. I await your wisdom as well.

 

Scouting cheers.

 

Barry

 

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