fleetfootedfox 10 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I am trying to figure out the meaning of the Indian words in this Four Winds ceremony: http://www.raysmyth.net/wtscouts/otenaBook/fourwinds.html I believe the original source for this ceremony was based on one by Seton in his Book of Woodcraft, but consulting that did not help much. I believe most of the words are Lakota. Spelling is weird though. Most tribes did not have a written language of their own for most of their history until after Europeans showed up. And I think the words in these ceremonies were written phoneticaly, so looking up words in a Lakota-English dictionary, for example, is problematic. Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 This comes from a Troop 760 Wiki-dot on the Four Winds Ceremony (http://troop760.wikidot.com/four-winds-ceremony) Anpetu wi (ahn pay too wee) the Sun Hau (houw) yes, agree, hello Mahpiyah Ate (mak pi yah ah tay) Father Sky HAY-OON-KEE-YA - "Be with us" HAY-OON-KEE-OON-EE-YA-SNEE - "Come not upon us" Make Ina (mah kah ee nah) Mother Earth Meetah kola nayhoon-po omnicheeyay nee-chopi - OMNICIYE (omnicheeyay) is definitely the Lakota word for Council, and Seton says this phrase means "Hear me, my friends, we are about to hold a council." Mitakuye Oyasin (me ta koo yea oh ya seen) We are all relate NACHINNAYET OKANDA TEHA - Meaning? (Nachinnayet looks like Nacheneyit which is Lenape for "third"; Okanda is same as Wakonda or "Great Spirit"; and Teha is Lakota for "Late" or is it meant to be Tchen which is Lenape for "times"?) Noon-way - Amen, or this is our prayer. (according to Seton, but what language?) Also: Wakonda (Okanda) - The Great Spirit Makaeina (Mokianna) - Mother Earth Mahpiya A'te - Father Sky (in Troop 760's 4-Winds ceremony but missing from Otena's) Weeyo-Peata (Weeyaeenyapapyta) - West Wind Wazi-Yata (Wusiota) - North Wind Weeyo-hinyan-pata (Weyapayta) - East Wind Okaga - South Wind My short bit of research leads me to believe that the "Four Winds Ceremony" was mostly created out of the writings of Ernest Thompson Seaton and a few other "native lore" people. With all due respect to the history of the Boy Scouts, old Ernie was the early 20th century equivalent to the late 20th century "New Ager's/Crystal/Harmonics" folks that the majority of us roll our eyes at (Shirley McClaine would be the spiritual descendent of Thompson). It seems pretty clear that the "Four Winds Ceremony" was written by white people who either used snippets of Souix (and possibly other people's) words to create new ones that they thought sounded authentic or were badly spelling words phonetically - I suspect a combination of both. Note especially NACHINNAYET OKANDA TEHA. It appears this might be a combination of Souix and Delaware languages. I'd say enjoy the ceremony but be ready to explain to the lads it isn't authentic - it's just made up by white guys - like the Chief Illiniwek dance at the University of Illinois - and has as much to do with Native Americans and Native Traditions as Christmas Trees do with Channukah. Link to post Share on other sites
shortridge 184 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I have a sneaking suspicion that Troop 760 and Scouter760 may be related. Call me silly, but... Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 around my neck of the woods, "a-hoe" (trying to spell it phonetically)is the equivelent of "Amen" Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Looking at the pic form the link, why is a ceremonialist wearing dance bells, harness, and carrying a sacred object, the calumet? I hope this is an old pic. Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 hmmmm...try as hard as I could, I see not an iota of eastern woodland algonquin. So, no Lenape. Two words did stand out....wakonda which is from the Otoe language called Chiwere. I suspect the correct translation would be "red sun". Not North Wind. And Okaga (South Wind), which really bewilders me since it's a Japanese word (maybe from the phrase "okaga samade", meaning "fine, thank you; or else, borrowed from the Itcorucika myth. Remember, just as native Americans had no alphabet, neither did they use cardinal directions as Europeans, or Anglo Americans. I'll have to agree with Calico Penn, it's got "made up" writ large.(This message has been edited by Le Voyageur) Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 oooops, a brain glich. I referance wakonda as "North Wind", not "Great Spirit". My bad (blushing). None the less, as I said, red sun may be the better translation. Link to post Share on other sites
fleetfootedfox 10 Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Yes, I created that wiki page. Aren't search engines wonderful? I didn't suspect I would be quoted to answer my own question. Probably should've picked a more anonymous username. Oh, well. As somebody pointed out, it is a bit difficult to separate the genuine thing from the European distortions and the new agers. There are tons of books written by what Natives refer to as Plastic Medicine Men. As for Seton, he was a very talented person to whom the BSA owes a lot, but he would have had to change things and make up stuff in his attempt to make the Indian way of life more understandable to white kids. Link to post Share on other sites
Tokala 16 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Most of the words appear to be Lakota. Oddly, though, they are phonetical spellings and not how a Lakota would spell them. East: WIYOHIYA PATA North: WAZIYATA South: ITOKAGATA West: WIYOHPE YATA Earth: MAKA One glaring "error" is Wakanda/Wakonda because that's a southern plains word. The Lakota great spirit is Wakantanka. Link to post Share on other sites
fleetfootedfox 10 Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Tokala, Thank you for your input. Are you a native Lakota speaker? How about these phrases that apparently come from Seton... HAY-OON-KEE-YA - "Be with us" HAY-OON-KEE-OON-EE-YA-SNEE - "Come not upon us" Obviously, phonetic spelling. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites
Tokala 16 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Scouter760, glad to be of some help. I am not a native speaker of lakota. I spent many years singing lakota songs and advising my lodge's sing team. We stressed that it was just as important to learn the words and translations as it was to learn the song. We had some younger lakotas from Pine Ridge that visited occasionally and worked with us. Once you learn the basics, it's not too difficult. Seeing the words spelled out phonetically makes it more difficult to figure out the words. I'll do some more research and see if I can't get close on the two you mentioned. Some of the basic parts of those words seem to be: "heya" which is basic "was said". "unki" which I haven't been able to remember. (oon-kee) "sni" which is "no" or a negative. (snee) This is actually pronounced "sh nee". Link to post Share on other sites
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