Jump to content

Recommended Posts

MarkS wrote in part...


"Given that Peaceful Valley is out of council for us and our OA lodge would hit us with a big election penalty if we didn't return to a local council camp next year,..."


Pray tell, What (!!!???) is an election penalty?


Please explain how the local Lodge, if following National Boy Scout Division policies, can hit a Troop with an "election penalty." If the Order is our Honor Camping Society, the encouragement of camping should be first and foremost in mind for youth officers and adult Advisors.


This sounds counterintuitive and counterproductive for all concerned.


ICS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Link to post
Share on other sites

(blink, blink) Huh?!?


If our local lodge attempted something like this, it would be like slitting its own throat. I'd estimate between 1/4 and 1/3 of our units go out of council in any given year. Why do they go elsewhere? That's fodder for a different thread in a different topic area, though one of the major reasons is for a change of scenery.


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If the Order is our Honor Camping Society,..."


I thought the OA had changed from the "Honor Camping" to just being the "Honor Society".

I might be wrong??

But yet again, it seems someone or some group is guilty of making up new rules/guidelines as they go along.

Of course Outdoors is a method of Boy Scouting and the OA is involved in camp promotion and the promotion of outdoor activity.

But the idea of some sort of penalty??? Seems a little daffy to me.

When it comes to being "Daffy" I think I should know!!


Link to post
Share on other sites



Honor Camping Society as opposed to Scouting's Honor Society is a debate all by itself, to me. I think it has sufficient merit to be debated. I think the National Advisers and the National Youth Leadership, in making this change, did a dis-service to the Outdoors Method of Boy Scouting.


Y'wanna spin off a thread, and let OJ have some input?


BTW, if you're Daffy, then I'm Boo-Boo Bear. The Ranger isn't gonna like this, Yogi...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The local lodge won't allow a unit to hold an "out of council" election for two consecutive years. After going to an "out of council" summer camp, units need to attend an in-council summer camp to hold an election the following year. It promotes the local camp. I don't know if this is an issue or not, my son and I were elected this summer so this is new to us.


Besides our local summer camp is excellent and extremely well attended by local units. Much better than the 60 to 70 percent mentioned above. If that's the norm for other councils, it makes me wonder if the policy contributes to the high quality of and local participation in our council's camps.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Link to post
Share on other sites



Have your Chartered Organization Representative contact the Scout Executive (Supreme Chief of the Fire). Make sure the COR is addressing this as a Unit Ownership Issue. So far as I know, there is nothing in the Charter Agreement which restricts Chartered Partners, and the units they charter, from selecting the LT camp they wish to use.



- What is the National Boy Scouting Division policy authorizing this?

- What is the Council Executive Board and Camping Committee policy authorizing this?

- Ask for a copy of the Lodge Minutes authorizing this.


This is wrong. Flat Dab Wrong. You will need to build a coalition of Chartered Partners to fight this, but this is meet, right and proper to fight.


Thanks for the first backstory. I think the deeper backstory is worth getting. Personally, I think this policy is worth fighting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pardon my stepping where I have not trod, and excuse any apparent ignorance or mischaracterization as ignorance please.


Isn't OA (Order of the Arrow) a National Scouting Honor Society? And if so in what way can a local authority put restrictions on it, or its elections?


I could understand if the Tribe of the Lone Bear or the ?Mic-O-Shay? which I understand are area or regional societies did so, or allowed camps in their local areas to put those kind of restrictions on membership(I would still think they were actually limiting themselves that way), but how can a National allow this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Honor Camping Society or Honor Society? How about Sevice Organization!


Elections should be held at troop meetings. Call-outs at summer camp (participation in call-outs are not necessary to become an ordeal member.)


Okay, "tap-out" fell by the wayside due to the the interpretaion of "abuse" by some. Now this year, the three taps to the shoulder and the "escort" to Allowat Sakima (sp?) has also been banned. I have just one request about the old OA ceremonies - Let it remain!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Our lodge does OA elections and callouts/pre-ordeal at our council's Summer Camp. "Out of Council election" was really MY TERM for the lodge's process when a troop will not be attending our council's Summer Camp. The election is actually conducted by the Chapter Adviser and Chapter Chief or their designees in May (before Summer Camps start) at a Troop meeting or COH (or a Committee meeting for adults). We can participate in the callout ceremony at the out of council camp or our local camp or both but must only participate in our local pre-ordeal and can do this by attending the ceremonies at a local summer camp of our choice or at our Fall Reunion.


Their by-laws say units can't do this two years in a row and the year following this type of eleciton it must be done while the troop is in attendance at our local long term summer camp (our council has two different properites and four different camps to choose from for summer camp so conceivably a unit can go to an out of council camp every other year, rotate thru the in-council summer camp opportunities and a boy will never attend the same summer camp twice in his youth career--doesn't seem very restrictive to me).






John... our unit is chartered through a public school district PTA where the district PTA president in the COR/IH. The amount of involvement and scouting awareness of our COR/IH is typical of this kind of organization.


I've passed along the info as I understand it but I won't be rocking the boat before I even go on the pre-ordeal sleepout. I have no basis to believe they are doing anything incorrectly. This policy has been in place at least 10 years (maybe 20 depending on what was updated 10 years ago) so I expect it has passed some scrutiny.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread should be re-titled WTH???


I skimmed through the "by-laws" of the Shawnee Lodge. Mark, I assume from your comment on the pre-ordeal sleepover that you are not a member of the OA yet but have been "elected" and are getting ready to do the ordeal. Once you have competed the Ordeal, I hope you'll follow up with National OA (you can use the guise of being a new OA member curious as to why the Shawnnee Lodge's "policies" don't match National's.


Here are some things I found in my quick skimming in these By-laws that are totally contrary to the policies of the Order of the Arrow and need to be changed back - this Lodge and Council seem to believe they can change the requirements and policies willy-nilly to suit their needs. OA is not chartered to a local Council to run as they see fit - it is a National program that must be run as National dictates. Paraphrase of by-lay between **'s.


1: *Every Registered Unit member under 21 PRESENT IN CAMP for the full week* - the bylaws seem confusing here - on one hand it seems to indicate elections are held in camp - on the other hand it seems to indicate that elections are held at a unit meeting in May. No matter - ANY registered unit member under 21 may vote for youth members whether they are attending camp or not. If election is held in camp, the lad can visit the troop the day of the election and vote. There is NO National Requirement that a voter must be going to summer camp - and this Lodge can't add that requirement.


2: *Registered Adult Members may vote for other Adult members.* WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - Adults DO NOT hold elections - Adults ARE NOT elected to the OA - National OA Policy is that Adults are RECOMMENDED to the Scout Executive for inclusion as a member in the OA - and is approved by the Scout Exec or his designee.


3: *After an election, the Unit Leader may veto the choice* - Again - Wroooonnnnnngggggg. Once the election is held, the Unit Leader can't veto the boy's choice! The Unit Leader has his/her opportunity to give a lad another year to grow towards the OA by not certifying him quaified for election in the first place - once he has certified a lad, he can't undo it after election.


4: *A candidate must complete his Ordeal during the first two functions of the Lodge* - In reality, an Ordeal Candidate has one FULL year - maybe there are only 2 lodge funtions in a year that this can be done, but the problem is if this lodge has 3 or 4 possibilities in a year - if the 3rd opportunity is still within the year, that Ordeal Candidate has every right, under National OA policy, to complete that Ordeal.


Then a couple of notes on Brotherhood:


*Youth must be approved by Unit Leader to advance to Brotherhood* - Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong (can you tell I'm frustrated by whomever allowed these "by-laws" to even get to the point that they were adopted with this stuff in it? Those people should have been whacked over the knuckles with a heavy yardstick by Sister Margaret-Mary every time they came up with these ridiculous things). Once in the OA - the Unit Leader has NO say in how a lad advances in the OA - a Brotherhood Candidate does NOT need "unit leader approval" before he can become Brotherhood. The requirements for becoming a Brotherhood Member are CLEARLY spelled out in everyones OA Handbook, and in National OA Policy - and no where in those requirements does it even mention a Unit Leader.


Which brings us to "Since the Ordeal, a Brotherhood Candidate shall have attended a long term camp" - again - WRONG!!!!! No where is there ANY requirements for further camping nights of ANY kind for Brotherhood or Vigil.


A member of this lodge needs to send this document to the National OA staff/leadership with everything that is contrary to and a violation of the OA Policies highlighted demanding that National take action against the dolts that put this garbage together.



Vigil Honor Member

Lakota Lodge 175 (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark S even though you may find the fact that your Lodge's rules appear to fly in the face of those layed out by the National OA committee I doubt that there is anything you can do about it. The Council exec can and should see that these silly rules are changed to match exactly the requirements as set forth by National IMNSHO. No less; no more!


I also have opinions regarding other posts made in this topic but since I'm an adult and the OA is truely youth led what I think really has little bearing. I wonder if todays youth are gaining as much enjoyment from the OA as I did when I was a youth. IMHO that should be the only yardstick to judge current policies by. Although The Order should remain as true to its roots as possible by being the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. To make any changes that change this they might as well change the name too.


Calico Penn sure nailed it! He submitted his reply as I was typing. Even if the reasons for these changes to policy are good the implementation is just wrong. Seems to me that Lodge needs to re-focus their energy in actually promoting camping not arm twisting.(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)

Link to post
Share on other sites

CalicoPenn... You surmise correctly, I am not a member. My son and I were elected in May per the lodge's Elsewhere proceedures.


BrotherhoodWWW, the only indication I have that something is wrong with the lodge's rules is what folks have posted here. The issues pointed out may very well be valid but I don't think I'm qualified to raise them as an issue at this time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand by my major comment after this is done. Sadly, MarkS has a "warm body" Chartered Partner (read PTA). They probably will not care that their Troop is not ABLE to get the most from a superior program such as the Order.


The Scout... yes, see the Lodge Advisers Guide and the Elections Guide. The Adult Selection Procedures are completely out of line with current National policy. Ditto the Scoutmaster having a veto. His time to intervene is when he certifies the Eligible list.


At the same time, yes, the local Lodge is allowed By-Laws, but they must be approved by the Supreme Chief of the Fire (SE). Local by-laws are NOT to contradict National policy. Unlike a Chartered Partner licensing the Scouting Program, the OA as I understand it is a Nationally managed organization. The hierarchy runs from the Arrowman, through his Chapter Chief and Lodge Chief, then through the Section Chief, until you finally reach the Region Chiefs and the National Chief... and all these fine young men are short their 21st birthday.


ICS, John

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Create New...