Who decides if we have unit elections?

[Eagle309 10]

I am SM of a troop and an arrowman. We have one youth arrowman in out troop (elected in this troop). At a recent campout the SPL was absent part of the time due to OA training for troop reps (as only arrowman he is troop rep). Troop did not funuction as well with SPL gone. OA training was known about when campout was scheudled, but it was the only week the troop could make work for the month. Still, some of the troop committee has a very negitive opinion of the OA and don't care if our troop has any involvement. If push comes to shove, can the troop committee say we have no further OA elections?

[EagleInKY 14]

In my opinion, this is overstepping the bounds of the Committee's function. They provide the "ways and means" to carry out the troop's program. Their only role in the program is to (1) approve the troop's annual program plan and (2) ensure that the SM is operating the troop within the rules and guidelines of the BSA and the Charter Org. While they can and should be able to voice opinions, as those providing the financial support would be expected to do, they don't have the responsibility of dictating changes to the program. With all that said, you need a good working relationship with your committee, so I'd try to bring this to resolution.

 

One missing element in your comments here. What do the boys want to do? In the end, if they boys don't want to do OA, it's going to be hard to get it going. You and your SPL will have an uphill battle if both the committee and the boys don't support the idea.

[EagleInKY 14]

An additional thought regarding the troop not functioning as well without their SPL. Last year I had an outstanding SPL (who just happened to be my son). Last November we have an annual overnigher with the Webelos following Scouting for Food. It conflicted with a church activity that he really wanted to participate in. I told him it was his call and he chose the church activity. (It's only fair, scouting knocks him out of so many things, this was an easy one to miss.) The campout did not go as smoothly without him. It was a learning experience for the other leaders. Some questioned why I let him go, but I think it's good every once in a while for your other leaders to have to step up and take the lead. As the SM, you often have to work harder on these campouts in order to make things work, but it's good training for the rest. They also learn to value their SPL a little more in the process.

[scoutldr 732]

Here's my take on it, as an Arrowman since 1968. The OA is an approved program of the BSA. IMHO, neither the Troop Committee nor the PLC has the authority to say "we don't do OA." All you have to do is make the time available to the Election Team, and if there are scouts who aren't interested, they can decline to be considered. If there are those who want to become Arrowmen, you can't deny them the opportunity. To me, it's akin to saying "we don't do merit badges" or "we don't do religious awards." Accepting the call to become an Arrowman is an individual decision, not the troop committee's.

 

One of the principles of OA is that an Arrowman's first obligation is to his unit, so if OA interferes with the troop program, you're not doing it right. If a scout is "all OA" and you never see him at troop functions, that should trigger a "Scout spirit" discussion at his next BOR.

[emb021 16]

To add to some of the comments.

 

* Your lodge should consider offering Troop Rep training at Lodge weekends, so it does not take the reps away from their troop. Also, other TR training opportunities should have been made available so that the TR would have other chances to take it.

 

* Your troop should not have functioned poorly if the SPL was not there. How would have it been different if he had been sick and could come at all? If your troop doesn't have one, they need to have an ASPL (even if its one of the PL that also serve in that position as needed). Thus, if for some reason the SPL isn't there (next time he might be going to Philmont or going to the Jamboree), there shouldn't be any problems.

 

To me, this looks like you have an issue in your troop that this incident has pointed out. Blaming the OA for a problem that already existed is wrong.

 

[jr56 92]

I believe the scoutmaster determines if there are scouts eligible for OA, if there are, then OA elections can take place. It is not the committee's call.

[EagleInKY 14]

scoutldr - I'll politely disagree with two of your comments.

 

" neither the Troop Committee nor the PLC has the authority to say 'we don't do OA.'"

 

There are several troops in our area that don't do OA. I can't speak to why. My guess is it probably has something to do with them not understanding it. If the troop doesn't want to participate in it, there's little the OA can do to force it. It becomes imperative on the OA to offer a program that attracts the boys to want to be involved. And, if parents have a negative feeling about it and fill their son's heads with that, it will be hard for the OA to overcome that obstacle.

 

Also, don't forget that the OA is not the universal BSA honor society. There is Mic-o-say and other programs in some areas of the country. BSA and OA are two separate entities and a troop can certainly operate without involvement in the OA.

 

 

"To me, it's akin to saying 'we don't do merit badges' or 'we don't do religious awards.'"

 

I beg to differ. Merit Badges are part of the advancement program, which is one of the methods used to deliver the scouting program. The OA is an optional honor society, which enhances the delivery of the outdoor method, but is not an essential part of it. You really can't do advancement (past First Class) without Merit Badges. But you can do the outdoor program without the OA.

 

Also, Religious awards are an individual decision. The troop has no role in the program (other than to promote it if they choose). The individual scout works with his pastor or counselor to complete the award of his choice. This is very different from both advancement and the OA.

 

 

I'm not trying to pick-nits here. I just think the comparison is flawed.

[nldscout 18]

EagleInKY

OA is the universal Honor Camping program. Every council has a lodge, even if they offer another program also.

[Eagle309 10]

emb021-- Ironically that was the issue. Troop campout was the same weekend as lodge training. Decision was made by TC that this was the only week for the campout despite this. SPL briefed the ASPL and went to LLD (at the same camp-- just 1/4 mile away) for a few hours. ASPL was not as capable of handling boys.

SPL has been taken to task for this and may resign as OA rep leaving us repless too.

[CalicoPenn 729]

I'm concerned about this statement:

 

"SPL briefed the ASPL and went to LLD (at the same camp-- just 1/4 mile away) for a few hours. ASPL was not as capable of handling boys.

SPL has been taken to task for this and may resign as OA rep leaving us repless too."

 

The SPL was taken to task for availing himself of additional training opportunities AFTER breifing the ASPL on what needed to be done, and, I assume, with the full knowledge of the adult leaders on the trip?? The troop didn't do as well without the SPL there as a result?? Where was the support for the ASPL from the Adult Leaders while the SPL was away for a few hours? How is it possible for a Troop to fall apart in just a few hour without the SPL around? Is there no other youth leaders in the Troop capable of handling the Troop - and if not - WHY NOT???

 

Who took the SPL "to task" for this? The Scoutmaster? If so, then SHAME on the Scoutmaster for not fully supporting the SPL and for dumping the problems and "failure" of the Troop while he was away on the SPL's shoulders? The Troop Committee? Then SHAME on the Troop Committee for interfering with the SPL/Scoutmaster relationship and SHAME on the Scoutmaster (again) for not advocating for the SPL and telling the TC to mind their own freaking business.

 

 

I'm also concerned about this: "Decision was made by TC that this was the only week for the campout despite this"

 

Since when is it the Troop Committees decision to schedule weekends for a campout? This is a decision for the PLC with the guidance of the Scoutmaster and the SM's Assistants. Once the decision has been made by the PLC, the TC is there to support that decision. The TC can point out conflicts (but the Scoutmaster should have already known about those potential conflicts and have discussed them with the PLC) but once the PLC makes the schedule, the TC needs to get out of the way and support the boys or they become the problem.

 

Not only is the Order of the Arrow getting blame for your Troop's problems, but you have effectively blamed the Senior Patrol Leader for the Troop's problems as well. It's time for you adults - all of you - to sit down and take a good, hard look at yourselves. Instead of taking responsibility for this "failure" (I prefer to think of it as a learning opportunity - and this would have told me that the youth need a whole lot more training in leadership, and some adults need it too) the adults are blaming a boy. Congrats.

 

Frankly, If I were the SPL, not only would I resign from the Troop Rep position, I would resign immediately from the SPL position and look for a new troop - if not leave Scouting altogether. The one person in this whole scenario who is blameless, the Senior Patrol Leader, who did everything right - avail himself of additional training to benefit the Troop, briefed the ASPL on what needs to be done - gets the blame.

 

You need to take steps to fix this mess - a mess you and the TC created. First step - apologize to the SPL for "taking him to task" and fixing the blame on him. Second step - get more training for the boys and for the adults. Third step - Learn how to integrate the OA into your program - the Order of the Arrow is mentioned in the BSA Handbook as something for the boys to become a member of - it is the BSA's National Honor Society (the one and only - the "Tribe of Mic-o-Say" is not a National Program). Since it's in the Handbook, the opportunity for the boys who wish to become a member should not be removed by a group of parents on a Troop Committee.

 

If this post sounds a little harsh, I mean it to be - the adults in your Troop have failed in regards to the SPL, have failed in regards to the ASPL, and have failed in regards to the boys. Blaming the SPL and the OA when the adults should collectively look in the mirror for the culprit solves none of the issues you've brought up.

 

CalicoPenn

 

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

Wow, I was about to write a pretty harsh response and I noticed what Calico wrote. He is spot-on with his response.

 

There were two statements that just jumped out at me from 309's last post. (The same two that Calico addressed). The statement that the TC made the decision about the campout plan tells me a lot about this troop. That is clearly the responsibility of the PLC. It sounds like we have a troop that is adult-run in planning and organization, but leaves the running of activities purely up to the boys. In doing so, you have apparently one "natural leader" who has gravitated to the position of SPL and no other boys capable of handling his responsibility in his absence. It's your duty as SM to work with the ASPL in this situation to help him learn to lead. We talk a lot about "controlled failures". Opportunities for scouts to struggle in a controlled setting and then learn from their mistakes. This was a great opportunity for you as the Scoutmaster to mentor and train a future leader of your troop. Unfortunately, that opportunity was missed when it became a blame-game by the TC on the SPL and the OA.

 

As for the SPL resigning as OA Rep, that's no big deal for right now. You've got bigger problems in your troop than OA. Take a year off of OA if you have to.

 

You need to get working on your leadership challenges now. It starts with you. Where you go next is up to you. I would say that your next step is not to work with the boys (other than apologizing to the SPL and ASPL on how the adults mishandled this), but to work with your TC instead. They need to understand their place. Organize a Troop Committee Training, which includes the "Troop Committee Challenge" game. It's a great learning experience and will help them understand their roles. Barry (Eagledad) says it a lot, that one of the most important jobs of the SM is communicating with the parents. This is a prime example.

 

I'm speaking from experience here. About 2 years ago I was in your shoes. It wasn't exactly the same issue, but there were some similarities. I started with the Troop Committee, followed by the ASMs, and finally with the PLC. This took place over about 3-6 months. It took 6-12 months to start seeing the fruits of my labor, but things did turn around for the better.

 

Good luck to you. If you're in my neighborhood I'd be happy to have a cup of coffee with you and share you more of my experiences. You are at an important stage. Take this opportunity to turn things around. You've made some mistakes, but this can be a catalyst for change. Be humble, be honest. You can make it happen.

[emb021 16]

"Also, don't forget that the OA is not the universal BSA honor society. There is Mic-o-say and other programs in some areas of the country. BSA and OA are two separate entities and a troop can certainly operate without involvement in the OA."

 

Sorry, but this is incorrect.

 

The OA is Scouting's National Honor Society. It has been an official part of the BSA since the 1930s, and THE honor/camping society since the 1940s. The BSA and the OA are NOT separate entities. The OA is as much a part of the BSA as the Cub Scout Program or Boy Scout Program.

 

In some council they have other groups in addition to the OA. That was a local council decision. There are 2 councils that do not have the OA (one uses Tribe of Tahquitz, the other Tribe of Mic-O-Say). Since National's decision several years ago to declare the OA to be the one and only National Honor Society of scouting, I have no idea how this affects those 2 councils. But regardless, the exists of these other groups does not diminish the purpose and place of the OA.

 

While a troop might decide 'not to do OA', they may get a visit from their DE or a call from the council scout exec. I know that this is being done in one council I am involved with, because of certain troops who, for mainly petty reasons, have decided to 'not do OA'.

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

Sorry my comments have taken this thread a little off-topic. I'll stand corrected on the comment about the OA/BSA relationship. However, I stand by my belief that you can have a great scouting program without the OA. I'm not saying you should, but just saying that you can. For example, I have a couple of adult leaders who were Life and Eagle Scouts who were never in the OA. They didn't even know much (if anything) about it. It was obviously not a strong program in the areas of the country they grew up in. I also know that there are troops in my district (several of them) that "don't do OA". The DE never calls them. The District OA rep may contact them once a year to offer to do elections, but that's probably it. OA in our area is fairly week. There's one big troop that seems to use it as their senior scout program. If you are not in that troop, you are more or less out of the loop.

 

I'd suggest that if we want to discuss this more we spin off a new thread. The issue with this troop has less to do with the OA, and more to do with their adult leadership.

[acco40 95]

Troop Committees may not decide that the troop does or does not "do OA." They are there to support the program that the boys create with the guidance of the Scoutmasters - period.

 

It is very easy to blame things on outside influences (i.e. the OA in this case) and not look internally at the problem. What is one of the responsibilities of the ASPL? The Assistant Senior Patrol Leader acts as the Senior Patrol Leader in the absence of the SPL or when called upon.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Eagle309, this isn't about the OA, eh?

 

It's about your troop committee. Calico was a bit stronger in his language than I usually am, but he was right on point. Time to apologize to the SPL, and take the core members of the TC off for a weekend retreat somewhere so yeh all get on the same page. Leastways, that's what it looks like from afar. I can't quite "get" your TC dynamic from your description.

 

As for the other bit, I think it's OK for a troop to decide not to use the OA, the same way it's OK for a school not to have a National Honor Society chapter. We arrowmen have to recognize that in some councils OA is remarkably strong; in others it's quite weak and cliquish; in others it's too much an "adult thing" for my taste.

 

Each CO has to decide whether OA helps 'em meet their goals or not, based on their own values and the local circumstance. And, too, each group of kids gets to decide for themselves. We've certainly got troops around here that "don't do OA." They tend to either be very active with strong older-boy programs that are viewed as real honors (so the kids don't really care about OA and don't need it), or they tend to be weak and disorganized (and might benefit from ties to a strong lodge).