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siberfish

fundraising on church property

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My Scoutmaster and I stared a new Cub and Boy Scout Troop at our church, First Baptist Church near Spartanburg. The Deacon council approved our charter, and also approved us to do 4 fundraisers during the year. (The church constitution says no church group can do fundraisers without approval.) We do not get 1 penny from the church, and as many of you know, starting a new Cub and Scout Troop is quite expensive. My SM and I are laready in the hole $1,500 for equipment, books, etc. for both the cub and boy scout groups. We recently got approval from the Deacon council to do a fund raiser selling Bar-B-Q on a Sat morning, targetting the people on their way to college football games. Once some other church members heard about this, they started an uprising saying that we we like the money changers in the temple that Jesus threw out. Has anyone come up against this type of church backlash, and how did they/you argue your point? Any advise would be helpful.

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Hi siberfish

Welcome to the forum.

A couple of questions.

What is your position in the Troop and the Pack?

How many people serve on the Unit Committees?

Eamonn.

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Don't forget to fill out a Unit Money Earning Application to get your non-council-sponsored fundraisers approved by your council.

 

As long as your Council & your Church have approved the fundraisers, & you are selling outside, why worry? There are some people who live to complain. Just refer them to your Deacon Council.

 

Our former Pastor did not want anyone except for a select few selling product on Church property. The new Pastor had no problem when asked about setting up tables outside to sell popcorn.

 

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My position is Assnt. Scoutmaster.

Unit money earning app. has been submitted.

We are doing everything by the book.

Our Unit Committee is headed Up by the Assoc. Pastor, who is on board with us big time, as is the senior pastor. The other slots on the Unit Com. are held by 4 seperate parents. The way our church's constitution is written, the deacon's pretty much run things, and the pastor can only advise them what the church should do, but in the end, the deacon's say what goes.

The wory here is that this complainer is a deacon, and will be the deaacon chair next year. We want to "take the wind out of his sails" so to speak, because right now he feels like he has the moral high ground. I was just wondering if anybody had some scripture refrences that have been used previously to hush up people like this. As if the Great Commission were not enough to go out, and we have already got 25 boys in our group who do not attend our church.

We honestly are to the point of moving our charter to someplace that will support us, but then we get in that stickey situation of the charter owning everything we have done up to this point, and we do not want to loose all the equipment and supplies that we have purchased for teh Troop & pack, and start all over.

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and if we don't take care of this now, we are worried that next year he puts a Ki-Bosh on us doing any fundraisers, and will be hamstrung to not do anything because of no funds.

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My thoughts on this: Are there other places where you could do the fundraiser? A lot of shopping centers will let Scouts set up in their parking lots. It's a way of sidestepping the issue and wouldn't accomplish all you wish, but your CO sounds like it has an element in it that's going to give you trouble in the future. It's hard to see the connection between a fundraiser for kids and the money changers in the Temple, so it sounds like something else is going on.

 

I would also point out that, although the church technically owns all troop equipment, if you and the SM have paid for this stuff out of your own pocket and have not raised money from the church or in the name of the troop, it would be hard for them to stand up to pressure about the fairness of letting you take the equipment to your new sponsor, if you decide to move.

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"We honestly are to the point of moving our charter..."

 

Remember it is not your charter. The charter agreement is between the church and BSA. You're just the "hired help".

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Not to put the cart before the horse, but if you have paid for the equipment being used by the troop with your own money and never formally donated it to the troop, you could make a very good case that that equipment belongs to you, and you can take it with you if you decide to move.

 

You want to try and get along with your chartering organization as much as you can, but to be honest, if you think that things are going to get worse and you can't count on your chartering organization for support, then you may very well be better off leaving and chartering with another organization. Or self-charter, as I've seen some groups do.

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Your brethren and sistren are showing an amazing level of scriptural ignorance. The "moneychangers" were those who collected the half-shekel "temple tax" that was levied on each male over the age of 20. The tax was payable with a half-shekel coin only. Those who did not have correct change or pilgrims who showed up with foreign currency were ripped off with a healthy "fee" for "changing" the money into the proper denomination, thus earning a healthy profit for themselves. How they relate this to Boy Scout fundraising is beyond me.

 

If the church members are opposed to fund raising, then an alternative is that they provide you a share of the weekly offerings to fund the youth program that they agreed to support by signing the charter.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

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I'm afraid that you have a religious problem and not a Scouting one.

 

Around here, even some Scouting debates have gotten rather heated. But, that's nothing compared to the potential for headaches that a religious debate can cause, anywhere from yelling and screaming to centuries of armed warfare.

 

Beware.

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siberfish,

 

Wow! First, two step plan (make that three steps)

1. Don't buy any more stuff...thats nutz...Troop does not need one penny to start beyond a charter fee and membership fees (paid by scouts) equipment should come after you raise money not before...(econ 101)(and remember more trouble, both accounting and politics wise comes from the "who and whys" of reimbursing than expensing directly from the troop account!)

 

2. EDUCATE! EDUCATE! EDUCATE! You need to find the boo birds (and we baptists Have our fair share) and sit them down to show them what the "good works" you want to do (scouting) are going to cost and just how you are planning to raise that cash...and "gosh, you would love to hear their ideas"...Let them "see" what scouting, as part of their youth ministry/outreach, will mean to the young men as well as the commuity and the church. Let them know that you plan on supporting the church...We always try to help our COs...

 

3. Look for alternative sites...Across the street? next door? Heck, near the Game site!?! And LOOK at alternatives to outdoor sales...(WE even use our church fellowship "hall" to host pasta dinners as a fund raiser...)

 

Best way to overcome resistance is to enlist them in the plan. Have the supporting members on the Deacons Council to work with you on solving this. After all they approved your program and they should help smooth the waters...good luck.

 

(AND STOP SPENDING YOUR OWN MONEY!)

 

anarchist

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Scriptures:

 

1. The bit about the money changers is TOTALLY out of line and a very non-Scriptural application, as has been pointed out.

 

2. You are trying to pay your own way- this is covered by several Scriptures:

 

Deut. 25:4- "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing."

 

Matt. 10:10- "or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support" (Jesus' disciples were to go out with literally nothing and let the people support their work- kinda like what you are trying to do.)

 

How about the ages old practice of alms-giving? That was allowed on the steps of the temple (Acts 3:2 "And a man who was lame from his mother's womb was carried there and placed every day at the temple gate called Beautiful, so he could beg from those entering the temple complex.") without condemnation- it was an everyday thing.

 

Or the general practice of 'helping others', as in Hebrews 13:16 "Don't neglect to do good and to share, for God is pleased with such sacrifices."

 

 

 

So, do you enter a 'Bible Battle' against the other people? NO! That is a sure way to create bad feelings and division. Your job is to win them over with compassion, empathy, love, and even a dash of concern that they might not understand your situation.

 

My technique would be to invite him out to lunch or for a dessert/coffee (neutral ground and food- big helps to negotiations!) and let him know that you were hurt and troubled by comments you heard that he had made (note- NOT accusing him of having said stuff- give him room to gracefully suggest you or he may have misunderstood the situation).

 

Suggest that you just want to clear the air and make sure you both understand each other's positions. Explain that you fully understand that the church does not want to be associated with some things, but that you were simply curious as to whether this applied to the troop/pack and if so, why.

 

Help the deacon understand that the BSA is basically the church's 'boy's club'- that the charter is an agreement that the BSA will run a structured, character-oriented, activity-filled program for the church's youth, and that it helps to serve others in the community as well- an outreach of sorts for the church. Believe it or not, boys and families DO start to go to churches that support their unit (especially after they experience things like church staff coming to camps to run services, Scout Sunday, etc.!)

 

Good luck!

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