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WasE61

New pattern of responsibility

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There is a lot of black and white thinking going on in this thread - an attempt to reduce complex situations down to easily solvable moralisms of right and wrong. But real people are complex, and real problems are not quickly solvable.

 

Planned Parenthood, facing the prostituted 13 year old, is not going to report it, because then prostitution rings would no longer use their services. Instead, pregnant 13 year old prostitutes would receive "home abortions" from their pimps, and die.

 

The lesser of two evils is what real decision making often looks like. Take a black and white moral stand today, and tomorrow you don't get any opportunity to help anyone and more people die and suffer than would have.

 

You know this already, though. If your neighbor does something jerky, and you call the cops, you have just declared war on your neighbor. You now have a guy next door to you who is around your house when you are not and no longer have his good will. We all understand that going to the cops on your neighbor is the nuclear option, and that even if he is dealing drugs, you might end up in more trouble later by adhering to the rules a little too closely.

 

Did you ever "take names" for the teacher in school? I remember one time a kid doing that and actually writing down the names of those who made any noise. They were punished. After school, that guy was beaten up by those he ratted out.

 

Teaching right and wrong to youth needs to be coupled with teaching them politics and an understanding of protecting the safety of their families. It should never be a black and white lesson in reductionism. Life is not simple. Life is complicated. Boys giving simple moral codes suffer in life as they realize they are ill-equipped to make tough decisions that require deep consideration.

 

Eamon - I disagree with your position on corporal punishment. My mother slapped me across the face for smart mouthing her once. I think it was the right thing to do. I would never consider that child abuse. I also applaud parents who spank, although chasing a kid with his pants around his ankles through a campsite with a belt is not acceptable, if the dad just grabbed his son by the arm and hand-spanked him a few times, I would just snicker that the boy learned a lesson about messing with dad. I would not remove them or give them any warnings about proper behavior at camp.

 

I think one of the problems with folks under 30 these days is that they were not spanked enough. They are demanding and spoiled. "Mellenials" they call them. They expect their mom and dad to solve everything. They think they can say whatever they want without consequences. They think they are to be catered to.

 

Yeah, I'm OK with the neighbor spanking my kids. I'm OK with the teacher popping them on the wrist with a ruler. I'm ok with an open hand slap to a child's face for profanity.

 

I understand this hurts some people's feelings and they view it as excessive violence and abuse of children. I do not. I view it as necessary and correct.

 

I support the same amongst adults. If you get physical with my wife, I will punch your lights out. I don't think I should go to jail or pay your bills. I think your actions should absolve me, and I should be able to tell the police you touched my wife so I knocked your teeth out, and they should nod and say, "Got what you deserved." to you and leave.

 

While I don't agree with everything in the rural area I live in, being the county's only liberal, I do agree with our local culture of tough love and traditional popping of children for bad behavior.

 

It's only abuse when there is no good reason for it or it goes beyond the open hand, imo.

 

I would never physically handle another person's child to punish them, of course, because even where I live the legal climate for that is intolerance. But if that were to become acceptable, I would be comfortable with living in that world.

 

It's the world we had for thousands of years until the 1980's, and now the US has the largest prison population of any country on earth - 25% of all prisoners are in the US. Why is that? Could it be that the US has stopped punishing children until its time to send them to jail?

(This message has been edited by bsa24)

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BSA24 - if we are telling our Scouts it is OK for an adult to smack a kid across the face for mouthing off, is it OK for the SPL to do the same when a Scout mouths off? How about if the SPL mouths off to you? Are you going to smack them for that? Shall the PLC get together and determine when a PL can whack a Scout for poor behavior?

 

You say it is OK to to punch lights out if someone gets physical with your wife. How about if they just mouth off to her? You going to punch for that?

 

We are supposed to be teaching kids the moral way to operate in society. Swinging fists every time someone mouths off is the path to incarceration, not morality.

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Nothing is absolutely black or white; but some are more one than the other. Some issues tend to shade more one direction than the other; but often it is the definition or interpretation that matters. A big difference between a pat on the butt, or in the face attention getting and physically harmful hitting or shaking someone in anger.

 

Few of us were beat as kids; but many of us had our attention focused by a swat on the butt or a stern lecture with hands on shoulders and face to face.

 

This particular issue shades strongly towards non-physical interactions; but there are times when it may simply not work. Just opinion, as always.

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I'm not quite sure if I support corporal punishment or not. If I do support corporal punishment, I definitely believe it should be administered by a parent only - as a parent, I would reserve the right to take a baseball bat to the side of the head of anyone that hit my kid - whether that person was a teacher, a principal, a scoutmaster, the neighbor, a cop, or even my own relatives.

 

I don't see slapping a child across the face for back-talking to be corporal punishment - I see it as the parent losing their temper and inappropriately lashing out. I don't see how a parent counting to 100 to calm down, then taking the child over a knee for a spanking is really all that effective - though I think that would be the classic example of corporal punishment. There's an old movie - Boys Town, I think it is - where the main character cultivates a really neat relationship with a boy named Whitey - and then pretty much destroys Whitey's trust when he spanks the kid. Now Whitey deserved punishment, but the spanking did far more harm to both characters than good. At least that's how I recall it.

 

Swatting the 4 year old on the hind end once when they kid is about to do something stupid? I'm not sure I'd call that punishment as much as I would call that a course correction. I really have no problem with that.

 

Hmm, thinking about it, I don't think I do support corporal punishment - I support corporal course correction, but not punishment. I think so many people resort to corporal punishment because they are too unimaginative or too weak to use other forms of punishment. Now before someone jumps on me for the weak comment, my meaning is that we tend to talk a good game, but a lot of us don't have the fortitude or attention span to see something through - it's much easier to take a belt to a kid and be done with it than it is to pull privileges, or to enforce a long-term grounding (No X-box for a week? Bet that lasts less than 2 days).

 

"I think one of the problems with folks under 30 these days is that they were not spanked enough."

 

I disagree - I don't think it's because they weren't spanked enough - I think it's because their parents weren't able to successfully say NO to them. I know there's this feeling that in the "good old days" kids were spanked a lot more often - I doubt this is true. I think with the exception of the rare family that went right for the spanking, most of us weren't spanked as often as we think we were - I'm sure my parents spanked me when I was younger but I don't remember getting any spankings from the age of 6 on - I remember hearing my father snap his belt, which was enough to make three boys stop in their tracks, but there weren't any spankings that followed. Same was true for my friends - we knew which kids in class did get regular spankings but it was maybe one boy out of 30.

 

The difference is our parents used the word NO quite liberally, and meant it.

 

"It's the world we had for thousands of years until the 1980's, and now the US has the largest prison population of any country on earth - 25% of all prisoners are in the US. Why is that? Could it be that the US has stopped punishing children until its time to send them to jail?"

 

No, it has nothing to do with parenting and everything to do with our "get tough on crime" binge we've been on as a society since the late 1970's - and a little bit to do with our love of guns without controls. Our violent crime rate is about the same as the violent crime rate in Britain, Canada and Australia but our murder rate is over 4 times the rate of any other country - our criminals are more likely to have and use guns. So part of this huge discrepancy in incarceration rates is attributable to our murder rate.

 

A bigger part, though, is attributed to the way we treat and sentence for non-violent crimes. There are crimes that we throw people in jail for that other countries don't - like writing bad checks. We sentence people to jail for longer periods of time for some crimes than other counties do - as an example, we'll sentence someone to 16 months in prison for burglary while Britain may sentence that same person to 4 months. How does that increase our incarceration rate? Say we sentence a burglar to a 16 month term in January, a second to 16 months in May and a third to 16 months in September - in October, we have three people serving terms for burglary. In Britain, they sentence a guy to 4 months in January, a second to 4 months in May and a third to 4 months in September - how many of those are serving a prison term in October? One. Their prison population is 1/3rd of our in that limited example. We certainly treat drug offenses much differently than other countries - while most industrialized countries treat most drug posession cases as minor manners, we treat them with mandatory sentences when prison time is really unneccessary. Do we really need to sentence someone to 5 years in jail for having a dime bag? We could start reducing that prison population immediately with saner laws - is it really neccessary to have 500,000 people in prison for mostly minor drug offenses or does anyone seriously believe that 500,000 people are major drug dealers?

 

 

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Horizon,

 

I'm probably a lot older than you, so I'm not surprised that many on here would give me a 21st Century lecture on how all violence is wrong.

 

I was raised in the 1960's when kids still got into fist fights and the teacher broke it up and no one was punished. Teachers in school spanked children with wood fraternity paddles. Going to the principal's office meant a paddling was coming. Your teacher could slap your smart mouth right off your face in the middle of class and then send you up to the office for more paddling.

 

I think we were better back then than we are today. People are soft and weak now. Their feelings get hurt over spotted owls.

 

Today, I understand that if a child is slapped in public iphones come out and videos start up, the police are called by all in witness, and probably social workers and a news crew will show up to remedy the situation. I find that absurd and a sign of our country's downward spiral.

 

Yes, in most regards I am pretty liberal, but I cross to the other extreme on this issue. I believe parents laying hands to children for punishment is not only effective, but necessary.

 

I do not teach that to scout leaders or scouts. Today it is illegal and younger families are horrified and start recording video with their iphones and call in grief counselors when a child is yelled at.

 

But I lived with my generation and now yours, and mine was better. We had less crime, less drugs, fewer gangs, and more poverty and a worse economy plus the 1960's were going on. But times were better. We were a better country, people were safer, and in school, there were none of these stupid problems with gangs.

 

It's funny to watch this young generation try to figure out what is wrong with society, why you have 10% of our population locked up (people your age and younger) while you all insist that spanking is wrong. That's what's wrong, you dummies. You took away the option for teachers and parents to put a stop to bad behavior and knock the chip off of the shoulder of an arrogant youth.

 

My parents spanked me. I am thankful for it. My parents also hugged and kissed me. They did not wail in agony and guilt at any point. I did something really bad, and out came the belt. I am a better man for it. We were a better country for it.

 

This is a clear case of Hollywood dictating an unsuccessful liberal approach to life that our country has swallowed and accepted. It is now taboo to do your job as an adult with children who misbehave.

 

Show me all of the good results with youth that have come from this new policy of not using corporal punishment. Show me the downward trend in youth problems. Show me how our nation is better right now.

 

You can't. The data go the other direction. We old farts handed you a country that had lots of problems, and you've fixed a lot of them and have achieved some incredible things. But this is one thing that was not broken, and you messed it up and let your own internal rationalization of weakness get in the way of doing your job.

 

 

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BSA24: "There is a lot of black and white thinking going on in this thread - an attempt to reduce complex situations down to easily solvable moralisms of right and wrong. But real people are complex, and real problems are not quickly solvable.

 

Planned Parenthood, facing the prostituted 13 year old, is not going to report it, because then prostitution rings would no longer use their services. Instead, pregnant 13 year old prostitutes would receive "home abortions" from their pimps, and die.

 

The lesser of two evils is what real decision making often looks like. Take a black and white moral stand today, and tomorrow you don't get any opportunity to help anyone and more people die and suffer than would have."

 

Or, since you know that THIS child IS being repeatedly raped by adults for the commercial profit of the pimp, you could report it to the police, who would arrest and charge the pimp (sexual assault on a minor and trafficking of a juvenile carries significant criminal penalties under both state and federal laws.) Or you could ignore the whole ugly business, because other girls MIGHT receive back-alley abortions and MIGHT die in those..and your abortion mill will lose profits.

 

And as we know that a relatively small number of molesters are involved with a large number of child victims, taking down a single pimp will have the effect of reducing the number of victims in the future, AND thus reducing the number of children impregnated by the sexual assault of pimps and johns.

 

What is so hard for you to understand about this? If a child is being raped, you REMOVE THAT CHILD FROM DANGER. NOW. That is what the law demands. You don't avoid action because of the possible danger that the practice of legal abortion may be curtailed.

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BSA24 that is the largest pile of horse pucks I have seen since Cavalcade. I will just say that if your generation is so damned good, why did you create such a horrible nation?

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"love of guns without controls."

 

Where on the planet do you find that? Certainly not in the USA. Firearms are the most heavily regulated industry in the nation. (What other legal product requires Federal permission BEFORE every retail purchase?)

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>>> What is so hard for you to understand about this? If a child is being raped, you REMOVE THAT CHILD FROM DANGER. NOW.

 

 

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I find it quite disturbing that folks can't agree to disagree on the corporal punishment issue... unless you are beating the crap out of a child, I don't see the point. There are plenty of parents that inflict untold psychological abuse on their children... they do it long into adulthood. We don't scream for them to stop or remove the child from the situation. The honest truth is until we remove parents from parenting and raise ALL youth on state mandated communes, there will be HUGE differences in parenting styles and tactics. Just the way it is. Some are right, some are wrong. You are not a bad parent if you once in a while use the rod and more than you are a poor parent if you spare the rod no matter the infraction.

 

As for the abused girl at an abortion clinic... some of you have a very simplistic view of how life outside of the suburbs really is. First, you are assuming you could get the girl to cooperate and make an accusation. Without this, you are beating a dead horse and most certainly placing the youth at risk, and likey yourself. You are lucky if all you get is a vandalized car.

 

I know a provider who once reported. He had to deal with the pimp showing up at his daughter's high school and threatening to forcibly "recruit" her. That's how the intimidation in the human traffic gangs really works folks. Didn't change his high ideals, but sure changed the way he went about reporting in the future! I see drug seekers and drug pushers everyday in my practice. If I acted on it, I would not get anything else done and I would drive all my clients away. At the end of the day, if the ailment is legit, you are leggaly bound to treat - even if you KNOW they are abusing drugs. You can counsel, you can give them resources, but if they don't want help... it does very little good to cut them off. They either go down the street to someone else - or they change in their prescription abuse for street drug abuse, and they're lost to follow up... tell me how that "helps" an addict?

 

As for firearms regulation...

"Where on the planet do you find that? Certainly not in the USA. Firearms are the most heavily regulated industry in the nation. (What other legal product requires Federal permission BEFORE every retail purchase?)"

 

Sorry, medical care has you trumped in spades. Almost everything I do, from assesment to prescription to ordering supplies and drugs for the office, are ALL regulated at the federal, state, and local level. Shoot - you got to put folk's ID into a database to sell them Sudafed and cough syrup! All legal retail purchases... all heavily regulated.

 

Until the cops start helping me do MY job free of charge - I'm not inclined to do much of their work for them pro-bono anymore.

 

Dean

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No, here is what happens:

 

The victim makes an outcry.

 

The mandated reporter calls 911. Police show up, detain the pimp. Or the pimp gets panicky and takes off, with or without the child. Police and the local Innocence Lost Task Force find him. A variety of corroborating evidence is gathered, which is not hard, as most pimps are as stupid as a bag of rocks. He is charged, under state and/or federal violations. He gets many years in prison. You identify other children he has victimized. Victim services works with the victims and families. Victim funding is available through RICO seizures to assist the family.

 

Is it risky to inform on a criminal? Yes. Are we expected to be courageous in defense of children in this life? Yes. Should you risk your tires being flattened and your car being keyed to defend a child's life? Yes. Does the law mandate that we report all abuse to children, even if we are afraid of the consequences? Yes.(This message has been edited by AZMike)

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I've made a concerted effort to not post in the Issues and Politics section anymore, my responses mostly get ignored anyways.

 

BSA24, your generation is not as great as your act like it was. Those things like gangs and crime you mentioned still happened, they just weren't reported as much. Your generation has done plenty of great things, and mine (I'm 19) will have our weaknesses, will fix some problems, and will create plenty of others. That's is how the world works. Take off the rose colored glasses.

 

Again I'm 19, when I was little my parents spanked me and washed my mouth out with soap if I cursed. No teacher at school ever laid a hand on me, and I went to a district that was very Politically correct. I don't feel like either of things made me a better person.

 

I think parental decisions for their children is a private matter. I personally don't intend to spank mine after about the age of 4-5, simply because as a poster above me mentioned, taking away priviledges works better in my personal opinion.

 

In regards to the pimp question, I would personally report it. But I respect that other people do different mental calculus when confronted with the problem. This thread has made the issue black and white, and spelled out straw man arguments for their opponents positions.

 

Dean, I respect you but I want some clarification on this post of yours. "Until the cops start helping me do MY job free of charge - I'm not inclined to do much of their work for them pro-bono anymore.

 

Dean "

 

Does this statement apply to your medical practice or everywhere in general? If you witnessed a crime would you give a witness statement, or is it not your job to help the police in that scenario? Not trying to create a strawman position for you. With all due respect,

 

Sentinel947

 

 

 

 

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Sentinel- No problem, I appreciate your question, and might I add - for being 19, you post some very well thoughtout ideas...so here goes...

 

If I see a crime being committed - YES, I would call 911.

If I see a stranger in the street in need of help - YES, I would help.

 

As for the vinette about an underage girl being prostituted... well - IF the gal is willing to make a statement or cry for help - then yes you help. 99% of the time, foklks in abusive situations (this type, elder, spousal abuse, etc...) not only do not say anyting, they defend and stick up for their attackers. Its not a pretty thing and I hope no one mistakes my personal stance on reporting as a casual attitude towards any type of abuse! My point is, people who work in prfessions that come across this type of human behavoir on a rather routine basis have come to understand that intervention is a very tricky situation. You risk loosing the patient to follow up (i.e. they will no longer seek care when needed, or be forced by their abuser to not seek care when needed), they or their abuser may retailiate against you, or you might be way off base on your "hunch" of abuse.

 

I stand by my statement that you can counsel, you can provide an opportunity to escape, you can refer to social services, but if the individual is not ready to take that lifeline, then there is little else one can do to help.

 

AZMike - while idealistic, is very misinformed about how the system really works when / if you report. Unless the report is from an ER doc involving severe bodily injury... you're lucky to get a cop or social worker to come do an indterview within 72hrs of the report being filed. By that time, the perp and victim have already moved on (if they suspect anything) and you've wasted your valuable time doing a report and interview that will likely go nowhere when you could have been using your time to treat other patients who value what you do for them. That is a sad, but very true fact of life.

 

We have mandatory reporting laws, we have to report out on narcotic prescriptions monthly, we have to screen for over the counter Sudafed and dextromethorphan purchases. If we fail to do so as a healthcare provider, the "system" (law enforcement and licensing agencies) can come in and fine me or take away my license to preactice. This hurts myself (unable to earn a living) and the community I serve (unable to provide care). They make the "good guy" into the "bad guy" because its easier to catch and prosecute the healthcare professional than it is to bust the drug dealer or pimp on the street!

 

I do not get any type of payment for all this reporting I must do. I have to hire additional staff to meet all the reporting requirements to keep my and my employees heads out of these legal nooses, thus costing me more to run my business. Yet with all these safeguards, we still have physical, psychological, sexual, and drug abuse in our society!

 

Less than 100 years ago, there were little to no laws governing the use and prescribing of all medications, to include opiates and such. Drug use was a problem then... its still just as large a problem now. If people want to abuse drugs, they will find a way to do it.

 

The current regulatory and reporting requirements do little to curtail illegal drug use and abuse. They do a LOT to prohibit legitimate prescribing and inconvience countless citizens that are attempting to access care for a legitimate medical need! They do a LOT to set up a system in which the healthcare provider must not only think about what is best for their patient, but also what their prescribing habits might look like to the state DoJ. It does a LOT to increase the cost of healthcare for everyone by increasing MY cost to conduct a legal business!

 

All this has happened because law enforcement (lobbist mostly) have been successful in getting more and more legislation passed for the "good of society".

 

Thats why I say I do what is required and not much else to aid law enforcement... you can argue I have an ethical and moral obligation and maybe I do. But, I spent my life educating myself so that I can practice medicine, NOT criminal justice. I fail to see WHY it is my job to do the job of the cops. They don't do mine for me free of charge. I'm not going to be able to save someone who doesn't even want to save themselves... I spend my limited time and energy with patients that WANT to do what's best for their own care.

 

Same reason I no longer lecture my fat patients about how their diet is killing them, causing their high blood pressure, and high cholesterol... I mention it, they know the truth, I offer help if they want it - then I move on to managing their BP, cholesterol, or diabetes. If I harp on them everytime they show up in my office, I am wasting both my and their time, and most likely they will get tired of hearing it and go to the doc down the street instead (or stop coming to the doc at all). That's a loose / loose situation for everyone involved.

 

Dean

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>>I think parental decisions for their children is a private matter. I personally don't intend to spank mine after about the age of 4-5, simply because as a poster above me mentioned, taking away priviledges works better in my personal opinion.

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