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Sorry Sentinal - the scary baby photos for shock value made me forget you were the rare 4% left of undecided voter.


So to date then we have No Republicans that will say that voter suppression is wrong, on the Thread.. Just 3 independents. Beavah, Sentenial and myself.


The social part is definately when I lean liberal. The fiscal part is when I use to lean Republican when they were fiscal conservatives.. But, I would listen to make sure their opinion against Pro-choice or other social choices was in personal opinion, possibly swinging a judge here or there.. I would not vote for them though if they were going to make there top platform issue.


Well in being pro-choice I would respect YOUR decision to be that.. I just would not respect your decision to force everyone to follow YOUR values.. I simply will also respect everyone elses personal opinions.


Your veiws sound like you would fit in with the group of Democrats for pro-life, if at some point you decide to vote Democrat rather then Republican.. Perhaps you should look them up, and see who they are.. I only saw one video on them, I doubt though I could find it, as I can't even remember what show, or the approximate time I saw it.

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Moose: With respect to values, I don't see killing babies as question of values any more than I see me going out in the street and shooting someone to be a question of values. Killing is killing, and killing is wrong. You seem to think I am forcing my beliefs on people. That thought is erronous. As I stated, I support Roe v Wade. Not because I like abortion, but Democracy is about compromise, and it is a fair one. My religious beliefs determine how I live my life, and nobody else but me. However, I do believe a great crime is being committed in this country, and will not hesitate to speak out about it. Notice I didn't advocate for a ban on it, but I certainly believe it's wrong, and my opinion on that matter is closed. No amount of fancy wordplay is going to get us to see eye to eye on the abortion issue. I'm glad we've we can agree to disagree. I vote in a huge Republican leaning district, so my ability to vote for a non Republican is practically null.


I'm inclined to like Romney, but a large amount of his party scares me, and I don't trust his wealthy benefactors.


I'm inclined to like Obama, he seems to be far more human, relatable, and concerned for the middle class. His war on religious freedom, his war to force Catholic institutions to violate their deeply held beliefs doesn't make me very happy, but that might be because I am Catholic. I believe my religion is something private, and I don't expect people to conform or follow my beliefs. I wouldn't want government to force others to do so. But I don't believe government should force Religious institutions to violate their beliefs.

His foreign policy seems to be a more tempered version of George W Bush, and as an in training US Army Officer , I feel Obama puts more value on my life than Romney would.


Gary Johnson is a libertarian, and while I love most of his social stances, I'm not a huge fan of the everyone for themselves breed of economics Libertarians advocate.


I will probably vote for Obama, and I hope the Republican party realizes it needs to return to the center, or it will consistently lose Independents like myself who could be inclined to vote Republican. Being a Moderate Conservative, I'd like to vote for a Moderate Conservative, and the current Republican Party doesn't allow for that.


As for why I haven't become a Democrat, it's an interesting thing. Everytime I feel like I could be ready to openly become one, a left wing nut like Dennis Kuchinich, Barbara Boxer, or Harry Reid reminds me why I don't wish to be affliated with that party.


Beavah, I'm glad to see their are still a few other moderate Conservatives running amok. Perhaps one day we can take back the Republican party. Till then, Independent I shall be.(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

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I am fine with agreeing to disagree. But, since you are not for revoking Roe v Wade, I would say that on that issue we agree politically, we just disagree personally.


I have yet to go Democratic, because I still hold on to hope that the Republican will come back to moderate beliefs also.. But, I have to say, from what I see there a 3 times more wingnuts in the the Republican parties these days.


As for the Catholic Church and the Health Act.. I still believe the two sides will sit down and come to a compromise. It is just that both sides right now aren't discussing the matter, and wont until after the election.



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Sentinel947, I can't remember calling you or anyone else a Republican. If I did, I apologize. I usually try to refer to political parties in the third person.


I did notice this sentence, however, "That we should avoid killing things only when necessary." I'm hoping you meant that 'we should kill things only when necessary'. ;)


OGE, "...does evolve and "flip-flop" mean the same thing...?"

Heh, heh, evolutionarily the term 'flip-flop' rarely occurs in the literature. In fact I've never seen it. :) But if it did I'd have to interpret it to mean that something evolved in one way then evolved exactly back to what it had been before. I know of no such instances - but I could be mistaken.

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You no longer have any credibility.


"So to date then we have No Republicans that will say that voter suppression is wrong, on the Thread.. Just 3 independents. Beavah, Sentenial and myself."


You're going to have a hard time trying to find an example in this thread of myself, or any Republican in this thread, supporting the idea of voter fraud or voter suppression.


Voter ID laws are aimed at protecting the integrity of the ballot box. Yet YOU seem oppose them. ACORN having a federally funded effort to register thousands of dead/fake voters hardly compares to one rogue employee at as single firm in Florida that the Republicans have filed charges against.

"State Republican officials already have fired the vendor it had hired to register voters, and on Thursday took the additional step of filing an election fraud complaint against the company"



Any paid worker soliciting registrations is going to be tempted to up their pay. Requiring an ID to prove that you're who you claim to be negates that fraud. Real voter suppression is two Black Panthers with pipes standing in front of the voting place in Philly.

Unless you're Eric Holder.


The ad hominem grows wearisome:

"To all Republicans in this thread.. Let me tell you that I am ashamed you consider yourself representives for scouting.."

Guess what, we're ashamed of you, too. But at least we're making an effort to understand why your thinking remains so un-focused and blindered.


"Oh look! A rabbit..."

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"WAKWIB - you must be one of the believers that ALL the polls are ALL wrong"


Nope, Moosetracker. You sort of jump to conclusions about people on these forums a lot.

The race is far from over, IMHO. Also, if there is fraud and other illegal activities going on with the election process, I would want to see the people responsible prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I hope I pass your sniff test as to what a good Scout would do, Moose.


Packsaddle mentioned Gary Johnson. I'd love to see a Libertarian get more of a foothold in Presidential politics. I find some of their ideas refreshing. They just can't seem to get much traction because,I think, the over-arching theme of personal responsibility is scary for a lot of folks.


I never really chimed in on the original post in this thread. I get bombarded on Facebook all day, every day, with anti-Obama and anti-Romney junk memes and links to hard-left or hard-right blogs and news aggregators. Nothing positive...except for the not so frequent posts about Johnson that actually has some substance about what he would do if elected.

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You know, I think both the major political parties could use a good 'spanking' by the election of significant number of Libertarian candidates. I don't know how else to 1) send a message to them to pay attention to the real problems, and 2) also get some good people into governing who offer an alternative to what we have now.


On the other hand, if we only elected one guy, say, Gary Johnson...can you imagine the lack of cooperation he would get from BOTH political camps? If we elected him, we'd have to follow up with sufficient support that the Republicans and Democrats both would have no choice but to start cooperating, or else get replaced themselves. That would be just fine.


Edit: Sentinel947, after an hour has passed, the ability to edit closes. It doesn't really matter now anyway, assuming someone will read through all the posts. They'll understand.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

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Sentinal - you only have one hour to make edits. You time is up.. I think most of us read over it, and our brains just figured out the intended meaning. I didn't catch that..


JoeBob - There you go taking things out of context again.. Not suprising as you probably picked up the trait from you idol Romney.


what I said was.


To all Republicans in this thread.. Let me tell you that I am ashamed you consider yourself representives for scouting.. I did not expect you to shift your position.. But like Beavah, I at least expected you to admit that in this one area, your party is doing wrong.. Instead, you deny, try to shift the blame, and point fingers at what a party did 50 years back, to say what your party is doing today is therefore valid..



Never accused any of you of verbally supporting it, just that you did not vebally state it was wrong, Everyone of you instead denied it, shifted blame, and finger pointed at old dead history of the Democrats.. In otherwords you all were finding ways to IGNORE the facts, pretend they didn't exist or both sides were equally guilty.


And, although I did not state this about the Drivers ID, I did hint at my opinion of it in a back thread.. I don't oppose the ID law accept for the fact Republicans rushed to put it in place, and are insisting that it HAS to be in place for this election. Although they did not leave enough time, or find a way to make it convient for everyone to be able to comply by the time this election starts..


As I stated in a back post, had it been rolled out like we did passports needed for Canada, which I think was a two year window for people to get a passport.. Giving you time to use this election and a few others to check ID's and inform people of the coming law or if an ID they thought would work will not.. Well, then I have no objection to it. Beavah had stronger objection to it, as it is not needed..


When I first heard about the ID law, I thought it fair, until I learned about the games being played by the Republicans to ensure that it would not be fair.. (not enough time, not enough places to get everyone processed, places being inconvient for those who take mass transit. etc..) Also the fact it is only being pushed by Republicans and why it slants to purposly hurt groups that tend to be more Democratic.. Add to the voter ID law, all the other Game playing of Republicans to suppress the vote.. It is clear what it is about..


Also about voter fraud as stated.. If these Dead guys voted, this voter ID law would not have stopped it.. As stated the names could have been put on to stuff the ballot box, or the votes by the dead people could have been though an absentee ballot.. In both cases the ID would have done zilch to stop it.

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Oh, by the way, JoeBob - since you again stated that since the guilty party say they are innocent and point a finger at one person.. Is proof they are definately innocent.. I need to add.


The head of this Republican base agency, has been caught before with his hand in the cookie jar.. He's agency was out getting Registered voters. If you checked Republican you registration was kept. If you checked Democrat your registration was shredded.. It was reported by a whistle blower. They denied the charge, but in Florida, Democrats who registered with them went to the polls to find they were not registered.







I will wait for the for the findings of the local investigators.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Sentinels position on voting for Obama after being a self-described right-leaning independent supports my assertion in another thread that this election is the Republican's to lose.


If the Republicans hadn't thrown out several of their moderate candidates early in their primary they would have swept the independent vote. The party is clinging to extremists.

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JoeBob - If you want to call that as an attack. So be it.. It definately was intended to get your attention and point out your are behaving badly.. I think now I only have one Republican who says it is wrong WAKWIB although it seems to be said sarcastically and not seriously.. All others seem to still be playing the blame game, and the denial game..


WAKWIB - Keep hoping, even our guys say there could be some great unforeseen disastor in the next 30 days to turn this race around, or some tape on Obama, that is as damaging as the 47% and not something 18 years old that says he believes in redistribution which basically is the tax system, and if you play the whole clip has him arguing the pros and cons of it.. But, they think except for that, you guys don't have a chance.. The debates may give you a little bump if Mitt surprisingly does well, but not enough.. Especially with the so few undecided, or decided but could by persuaded to change voters left..


ghjim - I agree with you. If they had a moderate Republican they would be in the lead. I was started the election season open to an alternative choice.


(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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It would truly be an eye opener if somehow the "none of the above" or "none of the below" option was made available.

We might see some eyes opened. Not sure if I would actually vote that way though, as we could end up with nobody;

yet that might force a change. Just spitting in the wind anyway, as that will not happen.

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