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"I can't agree with your arguement PChadbo.. Personally if JFK lived I see hem evolving with the Democrats like Ted Kennedy and all the other Kennedy's who stayed in politics."


I did not say IF he evolved, IF he changed or IF anything, I said his positions and policies IN 1961-1963 would put him to the RIGHT of Romney, I have no crystal ball and no way to know if he would have stayed on the far left with his brother Ted or gone another way. He is dead and it is a philosophical argument.

My point was to illustrate the movement of the political spectrum to the left.


"I think he would not be comfortable in the Republican party who goes back to voter suppression for blacks, poor and Latino, as well as women..."


Everyone seems to forget that it was Lincoln, a Republican that wrote the Emacipation Proclimation and it was Southern Democrats that passed the Jim Crow Laws. Yes there are Racists, bigots and Homophobes in the Republican party, but they exist in the Democrat party as well.


"He was very much into science, with his vision to go to the moon. He wanted our country to grow in the science field, and in education all around. Republicans now have no need for science that points out things like global warming and how a womens body works"


Can we stop the stereotypes and look at the facts at hand? Most of the Republican party was as aghast as the rest of the world at Senator Dingbat's comments about rape and pregnancy. Or should we judge the Democrat party by the ones who spkie the trees to prevent logging or by the ones who throw paint or worse on fur wearers? Just because there are nutters in the party does not mean the party is all nutters.


"She was asking what the vision was to get people like her into better paying jobs..."



yes I am shouting because it frustrates me. If she wants a better job, go to school, devolp skills, work hard and get ahead like everyone else. She made choices and has to live with the consequences just like I have to for my choices.



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Hey moose, how far back do you want to go with that statement about Republicans suppressing black voters?

Maybe 1863 and the time of Lincoln?


Anyway I thought Democrats were the party of the KKK, until JFK came along and helped to change what it stood for.. Sort of a Flip Flop between what each party now stands for you might say.


No.. 4 years will do. Ever since Obama was elected.. They hit basically (women, old, poor, blacks, latinos, students (or young)). Pretty much all groups but white males and military who are the only base left to the Republicans..


1. Voter ID, which make it hard for poor people to get the money for supporting document.. Besides the cost of obtaining documentation. There is no voter proof of voter fraud, except a few states where people who were just released from prison did not realize they didnt get voting rights back. Governor of Pennsylvania caught on tape saying voter ID which will help Romney win Pennsylvania DONE!

a. Place license bureau in hard to reach places for people who depend on mass transit.

b. Not informing the public of the changes, so that they can get the ID.

c. License bureau not open except maybe 2 days of week, or mixed in with drivers license.. Lost work, Lost pay.

d. Time from work to try to get to licensing bureaus that can not be reached by mass transit and are only open a few days a week.. Lines can be up to 4 hours long.. Dont bring right papers you need to return to do it again.

2. They are purging the polls of people months before the election, still wanting to purge more 40 days before the election.. True the Vote is pushing this, some states are eagerly complying others are checking and finding they are claiming people dead when 95% are not, or not citizens when they are.. If you are purged from the polls 40 days from election and your state requires you to get registered 30 days before election.. Where does that leave you if you are not informed you were purged? I mean if someone says your dead, and they call and you dont answer, you can be purged for being dead. Or if your papers saying you are an American citizen are not good enough, how do you track down more detailed proof you are a citizen in 5 or 10 days? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#49188356

3. Poll watchers.. Trained by True the Vote.. Say they are independent, but funded by republican super packs.. They bash Obama or Democrats at their trainings. They are taught how to go to polling places and harass and demand to see ID and discourage you from voting if you are a demographic that leans Republican. 2 years back during the election for seats to the Congress, they only have enough trained to harass people in Texas. Not they say they have trained 1 million and will be at every voting place in the country. They have been at booths that have early voting already. Demanded IDs from students and told them they couldnt vote because their student ID didnt have their room #.. It was not a requirement, only that their ID have an expiration date..

4. Closing Poll places in cities where it is again harder for people who depend on mass transit to get to..

5. Reducing early voting days that helped poor people who could not take off time from work on a weekday (in Ohio, they then tried to give those early voting days back to Republican leaning districts while keeping them closed to Democratic leaning districts.. Until the population found out and their anger forced them to close early voting for all).. They make sure city polling places (tend to lean Democrat) have too few of booths so the line to vote can be 4 to 8 hour long while Republican leaning polling places have more than enough so you are in and out in less than 5 to 10 minutes..

6. NH is trying to kick out of state students out, students tend to vote democratic.. If they vote they want them to have drivers license in NH (Only ID mentioned valid, What if you dont drive?).. Our NH supreme court said no.. Those wanting this are having a bird.. Supreme Court must hear this case NOW.. Before this election! This is the most extreme.. Most states are still allow out-of-state voters, but you have to get special info on your student ID, that if you are not informed about you wont have.. No one is informing them about it except Democrats.

7. Florida has something that will make its voting lines longer, and intimidate people who have difficulty reading.. A ballot 8 pages long with fine print LONG LENGTH reading involved.. Longer to finish casting vote, longer for the voting machine to scan in and process.. This on top of shortening voting days..

8. Florida also made laws to make it harder for groups to go out and inform and get you registered to vote. Judge just ended that law about 10 days ago.. Somehow Republicans groups who did not follow the law were ignored, but they cracked down on Democratic groups or No party affiliated groups.. By the time the laws were removed by the courts, democrats were way behind signing up new registrations.. Saw a poll.. Normally in the last 10 years new registrants for democrats were higher the Republicans by 10% (remember youth tend to vote Democrat, they are the bulk of your new voters).. This year, 10 days ago Republican new registrants were 4 to 5 time higher the democrat..

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Snarky are we?.. Oh, so sad to be proved wrong.. So sad to show your party up to be cheaters trying to win by stealing the election.. How to put this genie back in the box.. I know, Let's be snarky!!!


Mind boggling how much voter suppression has been enacted (or attempted to be enacted) by Republicans in just the last 4 years.. If it was one little act, I could have kept the information brief..


One I forgot, I will add on when I remember more..


9) Some state (think Ohio).. Wanted it to be valid that if someone went to the wrong polling place, the poll worker need not correct them they are in the wrong place, but it would be fine to kick the voters ballot out, even though it was a poll workers error (even if error really on purpose).. Judge overturned this one.






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not to pick nits but points 1a, 1b and 1d are the same thing just (kinda) restated

point 6 is JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!!



Acceptable Forms of ID for 2012


Drivers License issued by any state (even if expired)

ID card issued by NH DMV (Division of Motor Vehicles)

U.S. Armed Services ID card

U.S. Passport (even if expired)

Valid photo ID card issued by federal, state, county or local government

Valid student ID card

Other photo ID deemed legitimate by the supervisors of the checklist, the moderator or the clerk

Verification of identity by a supervisor of the checklist, the moderator or the clerk.


If you are going to purvey information, get the facts from somwhere other than the Media. The above link as you may recognize if for the NH Secretary of States's office. A much better source than wherever you got the nonsense you just spouted.

again, lets stick to the FACTS not the emotional dregs,

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Yah, when yeh have a situation where there hasn't been any proven rash of voter fraud, and then yeh have one group that lost because of da high turnout of voters in da last presidential election, and then that group is tryin' to put in all kinds of new obstacles to votin' across da several states....


I reckon it's hard not to be cynical about that a bit, eh? ;) Especially when a few party operatives at various events say that's exactly what they're tryin' to do.


There's a reason why almost all of these are gettin' struck down right and left by the courts.


As Americans, all of us - Democrat, Republican, Independent - should be against anything that tries to cheat or manipulate da polls. We should be leery of electronic balloting without "hard" backups, we should oppose tricks to try to exclude voters (and perhaps efforts to "round up" uninformed folks who wouldn't vote without bein' rounded up). Open access to da ballot box and integrity in da process should be a matter of honor for everybody.




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#6 is right. It was in the Manchester Union Leader in yesterdays newspaper. I will try to remember to save the article for you. Will not be in our voter information, because it just got kicked out in the NH Supreme Court. Until it goes to the Supreme Court it can not be enacted.. The list you show is also what you can have if you live in state, the rules for an out-of-state student going to be different. It was a way they were suppose to show residence, which their passport and other items may still be listed at the home of their parents. I will admit some of the other things will be ok, but were not listed in the news article only Drivers license.


I also beg to differ. Voter ID laws where you need picture Id is very different from Purging people off the polls because some outside source from Texas tells you they are Dead, not valid citizens or moved which is very different from people at your polling places harrassing people who are going in to vote or telling them their voter ID is wrong when it is perfectly valid to turn them away from the poll booth before they enter and ask the valid poll worker.. All three things are very, very, very different..


Oh here is another one..


#10. People calling your home to very nicely inform you your polling place and polling hours.. Only they are telling you the wrong information.. This was happening at the 2010 election, they anticipate it will be attempted in this election also.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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Snark? Oh yes, there it is a few posts above... upon encountering copious logorrheic excerpts from a compendium of lefty tropes, canards, and fantasies, the forum's Eagle732, appropriately played the part of the Bellman...


"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,

As he landed his crew with care;

Supporting each man on the top of the tide

By a finger entwined in his hair."



"cost of obtaining documentation" - like the cost of obtaining documentation to receive govt assistance? Is that next? - no documentation required to be on the dole?


"there is no voter proof of voter fraud" - so we leave valuables unlocked if we haven't proved that anyone's interested in stealing them?


(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)

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IN 1961-1963 would put him to the RIGHT of Romney.. He may have been to the right of Romney 1.0 when he ran for governor of MA.. I don't see him at all to the right of 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 or 5.0... Hard, to even imagine the new 6.0 unveiled in the last day or so. The one with the new Mitt trying to show he has empathy and is for the working person. Although he did try to go back to touting his Romneycare to show he had empathy, when asked what he could reference to show the public he had empathy.. But, then the next stump speech he was going to get rid of Obama care.. The guy has no empathy for anyone who is stuggling.. JFK had a lot of empathy..


Lincoln was the emancipation Proclamation.


I already made mention the Democrats was the party of the KKK UNTIL JFK changed the face of the Democratic Party.. It was from the the push or pull from Martin Luther King who slowly got JFKs support which resulted in JFK creating the civil Rights act. It outlawed major forms of discrimination against racial, ethnic, national and religious minorities. It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public. It gave greater protection for the right to vote. It enable lawsuits against state governments which operated segregated school systems.

The ONLY thing I see JFK having conflict with is the Catholic religion and Pro Choice.. But, remember he was the very first Catholic President elected and his religion was a great concern of voters. They did not want the US Government to be run by the Catholic Church.. He was very well vetted to make sure he would NOT put his Catholic religion high in his decision making..

The individual people and their stupid comments (and you have A LOT of them). Todd Akin and Paul Ryan with their Legitimate rape perspective is the tip of the iceburg. But, I admit Is one dig about science I just enjoy throwing out, because it is so laughable.. But, the whole party platform to dig and drill and not care about the environment or conservation in the desire to rip our country apart for all natural resources that can be squeezed from it.. Including Mitt Romneys comment when discussing drilling for oil of I have no idea why we have federal forest preserves. Their total denial of Global Warming.. This is a serious problem with the Republicans accepting science, (or caring) when it is not profitable.

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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"there is no voter proof of voter fraud" - so we leave valuables unlocked if we haven't proved that anyone's interested in stealing them?



Because there is no voter fraud, there is no excuse why it absolutely, positively MUST be enacted for THIS Election.. Thing of the time given to roll out needing a passport for Canada.. And it is not your basic fundamental right to be able to go to Canada..


It is being rolled out with no regard to the fact that thousands of people can not get the supporting documents and get to the burau in time.. If it is so important why not get the word out to the public and put establish more places where you can get a proper ID, and open it for more days? You know make it more convient to get ID, so that everyone can get the ID in time?


Why not spend this election checking ID's, and informing people they need ID, for the next major election, or that the ID they thought was ok would not work because of X, Y, Z..


Nope must be THIS election.. It is being fought vigourously to get it approved for THIS election.. We can't make it easy to get an ID.. It is their problem they can't get it on time.


All this although there is no proof of voter fraud.. Even those fighting to stop the voter ID law in Ohio were asked if they had a problem with the law if everyone had time to get the ID.. The answer was "No".


And that is picking at one voter suppression ploy.. What about the other 10?? Why do we need poll watchers intimidating people at the polls? Why do we need to purge polls of about 1/2 a million people 40 days before a major election?

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so we leave valuables unlocked if we haven't proved that anyone's interested in stealing them?


Of course we do.


This shows how da Republicans have moved away from bein' the party of businesspeople as well, eh? Security has costs, in terms of time, money, maintenance, lost opportunity, friction, and other things. Yeh don't spend money on stuff yeh don't need. If your neighbors are all friends, then there's no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a fence.


But da real issue is that we don't want voting in this country to be "locked" by anybody, even da party we agree with at the moment. Because our enemies or da party we disagree with someday might have da key to da lock instead of us.


So we behave honorably, so that da norm and example we set for everybody is to behave honorably. Because patriotism matters before party.


If you're a real conservative, that is.



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not saying your wrong but save proof, I for one will go with the information from the Sercretary of Sate's office rather than the "Union Liar" a paper that has bee held up for decades in Journalism classes across the country as how NOT to run a newspaper for it's blatantly (albeit right wing) bias.

It has improved since Bill and Nackey have passed but it had nowhere else to go.

I will no finish packing, say good weekend and continue this Monday (will you be at the Committee meeting?) as I am Off to Gilwell.



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Your taking Woodbadge!! Good for you!.. I looked for your name on the participant list but I don't have an updated verson for a month. You must have been a last minute sign up..


Wont be at Committee meeting, I should be.. I am *ick* taking on friends of scouting. I figure it is my year to do the crappy stuff no one wants to do.. But my sister is visiting from IL, haven't seen her in years, and she will only be here for a few days.


Union Liar is a good one, I agree in all you say, but still remind me next time I see you I need to kick you.. Then after I kick you I will tell you why.


I was hopeful, in the summer they were the ones to uncover and report on the lie in the Romney commercial about "You didn't build that".. The the guy in the commercial got like alot in government loans to expand his buisness.. I didn't read that paper, but was shocked when it was the paper got on all the news shows for it's story. Wow! they were either going to be leaning Democratic or at least try to be unbiased..


Then they are tacking back to their biased Republican reporting..


Still, they don't spin a complete story line.. But, they could have done the mistake of just saying they need a drivers license, and not listing other things that would be valid.. And of course there was no talk about it being a voter suppression tactic..

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->"If your neighbors are all friends, then there's no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a fence."


It's not friendly neighbors we seek to keep out - it's ineligible voters, friendly or otherwise.

An ineligible voter shouldn't be voting, no matter which party is in power.


Conservative concern for meeting your "real conservative" criteria matches the Scotsman's concern over the no true Scotsman fallacy.


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PChadbo - one more thought on the JFK thing and his interest in science.


Republican not only want to raid the land of all it's natural resources, to h*ll with reponsible guardianship for future generations, and being protectors of the earth.. But they also want to end the research for green energy alternatives and simply go back to only relying on natural resources..


This is way too close a similarity of JFK and his ambition to go to the moon. He would want to see all our brightest working on scientific projects to figure out great green energy alternatives.


Did you know he is listed as # 10 on the list of Green Presidents? .. He helped lay the groundwork for the establishment of the EPA and modern environmental protection laws. I just don't think he would now ignore Global Warming, or not caring to harvest our natural resources with care to not to totally ruin our country for the next generation..


altering his To the moon speech..


But why, some say, the Green Energy? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?


We choose to find green energy. We choose to find green energy in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too



Yeah, cheering crowds, standing a ovation..


Nope, unchanged from the 1960's JFK was a Democrat.. He would not have fit into the Republican party at all.. In fact you can say JFK was the founder of what the Democrat party is today. I think he would be proud of it's development.. He would have simply loved the all inclusive members that were at the DNC. He would be happy with their education initive.. He would be thrilled with it's interest in science.

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