Australian Girl Guides drop reference to Queen and god in pledge

[BSA24 10]

> pledges to the queen

 

If they add a pledge to the queen into BSA's scout law, then I will say that homosexuals have gone too far. ;-)

[Brewmeister 132]

Scouting is not mandatory. If you don't like what it believes, go do something else that fits your beliefs. And if you don't live your life according to the tenents of Scouting's beliefs, don't expect to remain part of the organization. Simple.

[skeptic 993]

Oh come on Brew'; that makes too much common sense. It is much better to complain and try and force them to change for you, rather than simply not associate with them. After all, it their right to make sure no widely recognized group can disagree or follow their own way without interference; even though they would complain if someone (actually have on occasion)suggests they should change their views.

 

It really comes back to people being too full of themselves as I have noted numerous times.

 

Back to preparing for camp and worrying about my own unit and its program. Do not have time to go beating the local council for possible under the radar atheists or Gays. Still think local option is the best answer and hope National eventually recognizes that as well.

[Pint 23]

Girl guiding is Not Scouting, it shares a common background with Scouting and many principles, and elements, but at the end of the day Girl guides Australia belong to another organisation called WAGGS ( world Association of Girl guides and Girl Scouts) as do t Gril scouts USA and the Girl Guides UK.

 

Almost all Scoouting in the UK, Australia and elsewhere and virtualy all Scouting in the USA is a member of WOSM ( world Organisation of the Scout Movement)

both Waggs and Wosm may co-operate on certain things and matters, but they are separate entities.

 

Scouting in the UK for example may look simalar to the Girl guides, but once you scratch the surface you will find that there are some major differences in how Scouts and guides are organised, how they are run, rules and reguslations and so on.

We (my local Scout troop in the UK)were going to challenge the guides to laser tag, but the guides rules say they cant do that activity. .

 

and im sure that there are also big differences between Scouts affiliated to the BSA/WOSM and Guides/girl Scouts affiliated to WAGDGS in the USA as well.( as well as differnces between non BSA scouting/wosm scouting and non waggs guiding/girl scouts)

 

 

So what goes on in a non Scoutng organisation elsewhere has little or no impact or bearing on WOSM Scouting anywhere else.

If Scouts Australia (Wosm) managed to drop the God bit form their promise ( oath) then maybe it would be worth sitting up and taking notice of.

 

[Brewmeister 132]

Obviously the two organizations are not the same, but the fact that the news was posted here, in what is predominantly a BSA forum, is done for a purpose other than to say, "Hey, take a look at something interesting that happened in Australia." It is posted here to make us believe that this type of change is an inevitable, inexorable progression of all things scouting toward godless, secular, all-inclusive organizations.

 

It's all part of the ongoing agenda of some to change the BSA, because they do not like the BSA, what it believes in, and what it stands for.

 

Frankly I don't understand why those who do not like the BSA spend countless hours of personal energy into trying to change it, particularly knowing full well that their purpose is not to join the organization but to see it disappear. To me that is the ultimate definition of intolerance.

[moosetracker 132]

Frankly - I think Merlin would have joined with his son had the organization been open at the key time his son wanted to join.. (At least that is what I got out of something he said a long time back)..

 

The Den Leader who joined and was kicked out and is of the current patition also obviously joined and was of positive influence to that den of boys since the parents in the den rallied to her defense rather then saying.. "Good Riddence, whose the next Den Leader?"..

 

I know there was a similar story about 6 months before her, but maybe it was a troop.

Frankly I don't understand why those who do not like the BSA spend countless hours of personal energy into trying to change it, particularly knowing full well that their purpose is not to join the organization

 

The Popcorn kernal Gay man, kicked out..

 

I remember someone else who was fine until his boyfriend picked him up.. Some parent asked another adult who stated the relationship and he complained to the council..

 

Some guy who was kicked out because he did something outside of scouts that was in a newspaper article, stating his orientation..

 

All of these were stories where the homosexuals did not publicize their sexual orientation but when found out by some adult who is predjudiced.. I just have never heard of the homosexual causing any attention to their sexual orientation until BSA actions angers them..

 

Now we all have agreed their are atheist amoung us who are fine to hide their beliefs for the other benefits of the program.. Normally atheist are easier at hiding amongst the agnostics, so they don't get their cover found out as easily..

 

Then you have all of us liberals, who can believe in a God, or at least be agnostic in our beliefs.. Those of us who have nothing against the homosexual community, even if we are not homosexual.. We are not kicked out of Scouting due to our beliefs that do not align perfectly with yours.. We will argue to end the discrimination, because it is not in par with accepting diversity nor in par with being open to all religious beliefs.. The fear that opening to atheists will make you Godless is silly when your CO can choose to be closed to atheists and choose to continue adding religion to your program. It just means at a camporee, your troop may camp next to a troop that doesn't do a prayer before their meal and may have a funny pause in their oath.

 

There is your answer.. They are not people who have no interest in joining BSA.. There are alot already in scouting, others who want to enter scouting, and some who may be just supporting others in their group who wish to join, though they themselves do not..

 

Perhaps you could start petitioning scouts to kick everyone out who does not believe in a christian reliegion that is conservative.. That way you could kick more of us out who don't follow your beliefs.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I think a few of you (starting with Nike) are reading way too much into the order of the words.

 

As for "values", the Australian Girl Guides also have a "Law" that is similar to ours, but not identical. They have now edited it to streamline it a bit and combine some of the concepts. They seem to have removed "loyal" and "obedient", but I assume they figure "respect" covers both. I think I understand why, if one were going to remove two words from a modern "Law", those would be the two, but I am not going to speculate out loud. (Nor do we need to have a whole discussion about it, since I don't suspect that our Oath or Law (or Declaration of Religious Principles) are going to be changing anytime soon -- regardless of whether they should or not.)

 

It is interesting that in the article that Merlyn linked to, the main objection in Australia seems be NOT about the removal of "God", but about the removal of "the Queen." I guess this figures. It is my understanding that religion is not nearly as big a political issue in Australia as it is here, but the issue of whether Australia should be a republic or a monarchy is a HUGE issue there. There have been prime ministers of Australia who have supported eliminating the monarchy, and they had a referendum about it in 1999. It was defeated, but that was due in large part to the split among "republicans" about how the new position of "president" (which would be a figurehead) should be elected.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

skeptic writes:

Oh come on Brew'; that makes too much common sense. It is much better to complain and try and force them to change for you, rather than simply not associate with them. After all, it their right to make sure no widely recognized group can disagree or follow their own way without interference; even though they would complain if someone (actually have on occasion)suggests they should change their views.

 

What's that got to do with this thread?

 

"The change in the Australian Girl Guides pledge comes on the heels of extensive consultation across the country, said Belinda Allen, director of the Girl Guides of Australia, in an interview with BBC TV."

 

Sounds like they actually tried to find out what their members wanted, and changed in response. What's wrong with that?

 

It really comes back to people being too full of themselves as I have noted numerous times.

 

Back to preparing for camp and worrying about my own unit and its program. Do not have time to go beating the local council for possible under the radar atheists or Gays. Still think local option is the best answer and hope National eventually recognizes that as well.

 

So are you too full of yourself? You appear to want the BSA to change to a local option, something a lot of people in favor of gay and/or atheist members have been in favor of for years.

[moosetracker 132]

I think a few of you (starting with Nike) are reading way too much into the order of the words.

 

 

Well my comment on the order of the scout oath was sarcasm that was saying pretty much the same thing. I figured those who push the moral values as the reason to exclude homosexuals would have argued about how the while the order in the Girl Guides meant something, the order of the scout oath did not. So "morally straight" was not because it was the least important.

[skeptic 993]

"Scouting is not mandatory. If you don't like what it believes, go do something else that fits your beliefs. And if you don't live your life according to the tenents of Scouting's beliefs, don't expect to remain part of the organization. Simple."

 

Just responding to Brewmeister Merlyn. Only tangentially connected to your original thread.

[Eagledad 2779]

>>Well my comment on the order of the scout oath was sarcasm that was saying pretty much the same thing. I figured those who push the moral values as the reason to exclude homosexuals would have argued about how the while the order in the Girl Guides meant something, the order of the scout oath did not. So "morally straight" was not because it was the least important.

[BadenP 93]

Three word reply to this topic : Who Really Cares?

 

I love to see the passion fly about something that does not affect the BSA or scouting at all, just a group on a remote sight 12,000 miles away. Merlyn can really get to some people with a harmless little article. Besides Australia is not part of the British Empire anymore and hasn't been for a long time now. Cut the Aus. Girl Guides some slack already. Maybe it is time for the BSA to relook at their own DRP.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Mr. Boyce 13]

re: topic: BORING!

 

Expect the Australians to lose scouts and lose relevance.

[Moggie 12]

"Expect the Australians to lose scouts and lose relevance."

 

Why?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[BSA24 10]

> Expect the Australians to lose scouts and lose relevance.

 

The data would suggest the opposite conclusion is true. The organization performed market research and made this change in response to their study's findings.

 

It would be nice if BSA took the time to perform market research on people who are not currently in the scouts and adapted accordingly. It might stop BSA's plummeting spiral into the membership abyss.

 

 

(This message has been edited by BSA24)