Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Trivia: part of St. Nick's skeleton was destroyed in the 9/11 attacks. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The TRUTH? Santa was dead. And then not: http://www.rareexportsmovie.com/en Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 No, seriously. Part of St. Nicholas' skeleton was destroyed (or just lost) when one of the towers collapsed and destroyed St. Nicholas' Greek Orthodox Church, which had bone fragment of his in a safe (a relic). Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Jay K Yes, shepherd tend to their flocks year around. However, they would not have taken them up into the mountainous regions to feed on the meadows and stay out overnight with them in the winter. This way it preserved the lowlands for the wintertime and gave the pastures a chance to recover. You can't keep grazing sheep in the same spot without destroying the grazing land. Just ask a Cowboy why the sheep herders were not welcomed on the Great Plains. Cattle will graze only so far on a plant and it will recover seasonally. Sheep graze right to the ground, completely destroying the vegetation. Anyway, Jerusalem is 32 miles from the Mediterranean Sea and 2577' above sea level. It sits on a very high mountain. Bethlehem is 6 miles from Jerusalem in this mountainous region and would not have had sheep in the winter grazing with the shepherds in the winter time. This migratory pattern of shepherds with permanent homes in the lowlands taking their sheep higher into the mountains for fresh grazing, thus living out in the open with them, is well documented. Most Biblical scholars would agree that the time of Jesus' actual birth was probably around April or May. This is why Luke was adamant about relaying the part where the shepherds were out in their fields by night. If it was winter, they would have been home in bed. Because of the mountainous region of Bethlehem, there would not have had any shepherds up in the area at that time of the year. It's common knowledge that the observance of Christmas was moved to counter the solstice practices that competed with it in the earlier years. As a further note on the comment about prophesy setting the date, that is false. There is no prophesy that states that. One also has to take into consideration that the Hebrew Calendar is lunar based, not solar based. The Romans/Greeks use a 10 month solar calendar which Julius Caesar added a month (July) and not to be outdone Agustus Caesar added another (August). This is why September (Sept = 7) is the 9th month, October (Oct = 8), etc. up to December (Dec = 10). Regardless of which calendar one uses, the solstices and equinoxes were well known to everyone. That's why the winter solstice, the longest night was observed as a day dedicated to light. It is a good choice for putting Christmas around that day, the day the Light of the World appeared among humankind. This is why Passover in the Hebrew calendar is marked as a Thursday after a certain lunar cycle and thus Good Friday/Easter jump all over the solar calendar. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)(This message has been edited by jblake47) Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Merlyn_LeRoy, Are you trying to say that Santa Claus was one of the two objects that flew into one of the two towers? Stosh Sorry, I hadda ask. Link to post Share on other sites
Novice_Cubmaster 10 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Stosh, Gotta correct you on 2 points... "2) Genealogists will have a nightmare trying to link Jesus to the House of David because Joseph was the descendent of David. Mary was from the House of Levi, i.e. her kinsman Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist was a Levite." In Judaism, tribal lineage is Paternal. "This is why Passover in the Hebrew calendar is marked as a Thursday after a certain lunar cycle and thus Good Friday/Easter jump all over the solar calendar." Passover isnt always a Thursday (cuz that would be too easy). It is a lunar calendar-based date, so it wobbles around on our solar-based calendar. Fun Fact - The Nicene Council intentionally came up with a formula for calculating the date of Easter to avoid the dates for Passover. But hey - Merry Christmas. NC (2 candles down, 6 to go) Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Novice, That's the point of the myth. You are totally correct, the Davidic lineage of Jesus is through Joseph, that's why Joseph had to go to Bethlehem, the city of HIS lineage, the City of David, to enroll in the census, but Christians are adamant about Jesus' father being God, not Joseph. Can't have it both ways. As far as the dates of Easter, even the Christians can't agree on it. Passover is calculated on the Hebrew calendar which is lunar based. Christians use the Passover target for setting Easter because of the Last Supper being the Passover Seder meal. For Christians, Easter couldn't rely on the actual lunar cycles, didn't want to use the Hebrew calendar and so they said the first Sunday after the vernal equinox based on the ecclesiastical calendar set up by the church which is also lunar based. Of course that all depends on whether one is using the church calendar based on Gregorian or Julian calendars. And whether Thursday this year is really a Monday! If Christians can't figure out Easter (the most holy of days during the year) what makes one think they can pull off Christmas at the right time? The point being made is that these religious holidays are established by what people say they are and not really the true anniversary of what they celebrate. After all the church says Christ was born on Christmas Day, they don't say Christ was born on December 25th. As far as I can tell the Bible only says Jesus was born and leaves it at that. I'm thinking that by your post and the fact that you're lighting candles this time of year you might be Jewish. If that be the case may the Light you light at this time be of great blessing for you and your family throughout the year. If not, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Tampa Turtle 1011 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I thought a scout was supposed to be respectful of others beliefs. Assuming the construct of a bunch of scouters talking around a fire it seems disrespectful to call another's beliefs "a myth". I grew up as a Catholic in a 80% jewish neighborhood; we were the token "handy goy" household but we were always respectful each other's faiths. Come on, act like scouts! Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Myth 1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. 2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth. 2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia. 3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. 4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" (Leon Wolff). I guess as a Christian I'm not all that upset with the many myths surrounding my religion. There are a lot of traditions that have no basis in the teachings of the religion. As far as Christmas is concerned there are a lot of traditional stories surrounding the believe that have no basis in the Scriptures. By definition of the word myth, these traditional stories are thus myth. It is truly a myth that angels are female and have wings. In all my life I have never seen an angel without wings anywhere. Wings are what makes them an angel and yet scripture never describes God's angels as having wings. To point this out is not disrespecting a person's religion, just pointing out the differences between the actual writings and what people have traditionally come to think is correct. As a scripturalist rather than a traditionalist, I have no problem with people believing what they wish, but if a question is asked, I will give a scriptural answer. If one were to carry the discussion a step further, telling children about Santa Claus is perpetuating a myth and then telling them it's not true is a major disrespect on their beliefs. We perpetuate this process over and over again and somehow feel this is okay. I don't happen to be one of them. But if the occasion calls for it, I have donned the red suit and handed out presents with a hearty "Ho, ho, ho" without batting an eye. All religions have myths (i.e. traditions) that are really part of them. Questioning them and discussing them is not being disrespectful. Not being honest in the first place, may very well be. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1593 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Myth... Interesting debate. LOL.... The theory that the 25th was borrowed from pagan rituals is also a myth. I'm not a Bible scholar, but from what I've read the first mention of Dec 25th / Jan 6th was around 250 to 300 AD. The 1st written association between the dates was not until a commentator commented on it in 1200 AD. By 1200 AD, Christians had started adopting some pagan practices in their celebrations (Christmas trees???, other). Then there's the whole shift of the calendars (Gregorian, Julian, ...). (i.e. the 12 days of Christmas). Eventually I get lost. But it is a simplistic myth that Dec 25th is just an adoption of a pagan holiday. Bible scholars I've read recognize the pagan theory as popular myth. Though Christians did not live in isolation, none of the extensive written debate from that era mentions that reasoning. Also, most Christmas pagan traditions didn't get adopted until almost a thousand years later. Did it influenced? I don't know. Was it the only or main reason? No. The Bible does have some hints on the date (Luke 1), but it's not precise. Ultimately, the dates are chosen by man and chosen to honor God's gifts. That's really all that's important. On a personal note.... Whether your a Christian, traditionalist or a structuralist, I'll leave that to you. But don't look down on others beliefs. That happened in an evangelical church that my wife happily attended. The only good that happened is that it made me reflect, research and pray and return to my Catholic heritage. Once I understood the teachings, I had to confess my Catholic faith.(This message has been edited by fred8033) Link to post Share on other sites
Tampa Turtle 1011 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I don't mind a rollicking good theological or historical debate but did not like the disrespectful tone...most other folks beliefs have things that on the surface to outsiders seem silly or ridiculous but have been meaning to them. Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Shepherds watching flocks? No! they weren't watching their flocks, they were washing their socks! Ea Link to post Share on other sites
Tampa Turtle 1011 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Because they were wool socks and cotton kills! Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Joseph of Arimathea was Mary's uncle, and a Magi Mary was raped by a Roman soldier, was about age 16 at the time of Yeshua's birth. Joseph was not her husband, but her father. Under Jewish law, Mary was subject to being stoned to death, being spirted away and hidden for safety. There were more than 3 magi Frankencense was used to bless the birth Mirth is used as an antiseptic inferring a difficult birth. Gold was the nest egg from Joseph of Arimathea to get Mary, and the child to Egypt, there he would study in the mystery schools at Heliopolis Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Tampa Turtle, I'm curious, please list things you call 'myths' which no one would consider disrespectful as a result. Alternatively answer this question: Is it inherently disrespectful to call something...anything, a myth? If not how can I tell the difference between respect and disrespect when calling something a myth? Link to post Share on other sites
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