Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8901378/Girl-guides-set-to-drop-oath-to-God-in-bow-to-secularists.html(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy) Link to post Share on other sites
BDPT00 41 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Nobody is forcing them to join an organization they don't buy into. Go join somthing else. The GSUSA is still trying to recover from the same bone-headed move. Take a stand! BDPT00 Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Well although I have nothing against allowing atheists in, I do have something against them forcing the groups to change their oaths.. In order for them to join then both groups would need to find a suitable compromise.. Compromise is not allowing atheists to have it all their own way.. Personally I am fine with the pledge of Allegence keeping "under God" and the athiests just not saying that piece and not being considered disrespectful. So weather the pledge/oath is said once with the the athiests silent for a section, or said twice to accomidate both parties.. Definately it should not be changed to only accomidate only one party. One of the reasons I feel the battle on allowing homosexuals in will be won before that of the athiests.. The homosexuals will have no need to change the program.. The athiests would have to accept that the program will not be changed radically in order to accomidate them. They would have to accept compromise and co-existing.. And there will be more of a fear that they will not, simply because of the fact they could not leave well enough alone when accepted into other groups. Link to post Share on other sites
vol_scouter 365 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 People should not join organizations that have tenets that they do not believe. Link to post Share on other sites
Cambridgeskip 658 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 To be honest I wouldn't believe everything you read in the Telegraph. It is so biased* and right wing it makes Gengis Khan look like a liberal. They are having a review of the position and not promising to change anything. *All UK news papers are heavily biased one way or the other Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Nobody is forcing them to join an organization they don't buy into. Nobody is forcing the Girl Guides to change, either. Well although I have nothing against allowing atheists in, I do have something against them forcing the groups to change their oaths.. Nobody is forcing the Girl Guides to change, either. Wow, some people still can't read, can they? People should not join organizations that have tenets that they do not believe. So I assume you're on the side of the atheists who haven't joined and have asked the Girl Guides to add a nonreligious promise, rather than the atheists who simply ignore it and join anyway? Link to post Share on other sites
jrush 11 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I don't know why anyone would be surprised...this is what happens when you have a nonsectarian service organization attempt to include a nod to Abrahamic religion. Eventually, one or the other simply has to go...they can't coexist. Eventually the BSA is going to do the same thing. It's either going to have to dump "public God" (i.e., the religion awards, the bar on atheists, the bar on homosexuals, drop vocal prayers for moments of silence) or dump all pretense at being nonsectarian and choose where to draw it's line in the sand...at Abrahamic Monotheism or Christianity. Either way, ther will be some unhappy people in Scouting. Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 From the words of the article, it is not the GGs that are dissapointing the youngster in question, but the family who is making the decision to not be religious, or express a faith in a "higher being". Thatis their choice. It is good to have such diversity in the world. Makes me sure there is a god, if he can allow his favorite species (at least I hope it is) such freedom of choice... 'Course , there are other good orgs for boys and girls to join. Camp Fire USA comes to mind. They also have a promise, but it makes no mention of a deity. Same with 4H, but maybe they are not available in Britain. Even the Christ thru the Bible tells us not to swear , only to tell the truth as we know it. Hence the BSA "oath" is not considered a "swearing" but a promise, a declaration of our action and belief. If that includes a promise to serve the "creative force" of the universe, so be it. There is no "requirement" to do so, only if you want to belong to the Girl Guides or the Boy Scouts. At least for now. Link to post Share on other sites
Frank17 10 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Wow. Hope this movement stays over there, and does not make inroads into the USA. There are so many other similar groups to GUSA and BSA that it seems silly perople can't find an alternate that does not require the oath to God. I guess sucess and popularity has its price. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Boyce 13 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 If I were an atheist, I would know I'd be uncomfortable in a religious program, an ecumenical program or even a program of ethical uplift. I wouldn't join. I have tried but failed to find the logic of someone joining the BSA. . . and then complaining about it. I suppose, with respect to (vacuous?) rights, I think: (a) what gives an atheist the "right" to enter an organization in an effort to substantially change it? . . . and (b) does not such an atheist disrepect the rights of those who are in the organization and support its goals? By the same token, perhaps all those opposed to the NRA should join the NRA, get involved in NRA politics, and then change the organization's mission to something they feel is morally better. No concern for other person. Link to post Share on other sites
Merlyn_LeRoy 72 Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 I have tried but failed to find the logic of someone joining the BSA. . . and then complaining about it. Yes, it's sooo obvious from reading the forums here that nobody ever joins the BSA and later complains about it. I suppose, with respect to (vacuous?) rights, I think: (a) what gives an atheist the "right" to enter an organization in an effort to substantially change it? . . . and (b) does not such an atheist disrepect the rights of those who are in the organization and support its goals? Well, let's see: you complained about the iPod shoulder pocket for the new uniform, and how you don't like a more militaristic look. Doesn't that disrespect the rights of those who support the new uniform? I can probably find you complaining about more aspects of the BSA program if I go through all your 468 posts. Or don't your rules count for yourself, only other people? Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 It's Merlyn. He's stirring the pot. I choose not to play his game. Do not bother responding, Merlyn, I won't even look at this thread again. As Cambridgeskip said, consider the source... Link to post Share on other sites
lrsap 10 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 While he may be stirring things up, I did find one thing extremely interesting after I read the article. That is the fact that any girl may join, but you only have access to certain awards of the program by pledging an oath to God or a religion. No matter what side of the argument you are on, this can never work. Another thing I found interesting was this from the spokesman for the Scout Association: "They need to have a faith or be willing to explore having a faith if they're to be a Scout." So what happens if a boy willingly explores having a faith, but then decides it is not for him? Link to post Share on other sites
Moggie 12 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 "So what happens if a boy willingly explores having a faith, but then decides it is not for him?" Young people under that age of 18 are still exploring and developing their spiritual self therefore an avowed absence of faith is only a bar for an adult appointment with the Scout Association Cheers Moggie Link to post Share on other sites
SaintCad 10 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Not exactly the same issue but similar. My Troop (as are most units) is chartered by a religious organization. We want to foster closer ties and with a new pastor, I (as Scoutmaster) want to make him aware of the office of Chaplain and also ask if they would be willing to provide instruction on the generic Protestant youth religious award if any of the Scouts want it. One parent on the committee was upset as they saw that as an encroachment on the scouts' religious freedom. I did not disagree with her, but made it clear as the "owners" of the Troop, the church can play an integral part or continue as absentee owners like they have been. I don't think BSA has ever really settled the issue of whether or not it is a religion-based organization. You can't be atheist but you can be Buddhist. No one religion is promoted but I know of a scout in another troop that was humiliated in front of his peers for not participating in a very Christian-based prayer. One young scout told me he was an atheist and after talking to him it was clear he was agnostic (but he had no clue what the difference was). By BSA policy, I believe he is to be barred from scouting if he is a self-proclaimed atheist, but would that have been the right thing to do? Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now