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Where does BSA tell us homosexuals are not allowed?

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evilleramsfan, I have read the court opinions in the Dale case a few times and I don't think there is anything in there about the CO. Based on the factual statements, the article in question appeared in a newspaper, and Dale then received a letter from his council terminating his membership in the BSA. The newspaper in question is a statewide newspaper, so it is quite possible that someone from his home area saw the article even though it was about a seminar that was conducted elsewhere. As for him being "openly vocal about his homosexuality," well, he was the president of an organization of gay students at his college. (I believe he was 19 years old at the time this occurred.) The other leaders in his troop may or may not have known that. The point is, I think it should have been left up to his troop to decide whether he was suitable as a leader or not, regardless of how "openly vocal" he was. That is not what happened. His council terminated him from the BSA entirely, citing a supposed national policy that gay people (or openly gay people) cannot serve as leaders.

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Wrong. There was no mention of scouting or the BSA in the newspaper article.


Merlyn is quite right, and I apologize. Us old fellows and our memories! Dale was at a conference about young homosexuals and was interviewed about the needs for teen gay males to have older mentors.


Yeh can see where this would still trigger brand image control when published with a photograph in a statewide newspaper.


The dismissal happened in 1990 which was before New Jersey had a non-discrimination law that included sexual orientation, so at the time the BSA took action they very clearly had every right to do so. Dale sued 2 years later, shortly after NJ had amended its non-discrimination statute. My memory of his comments came from interviews at that time, not da 1990 article.


Mea culpa.




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SCOOTER? :) That's funny. Thanks! Really, I mean that. It made me laugh.


Nah, what I am sayin g is this: If they are hiding it, then how are they modeling it?


I am not saying they should hide it, or should flaunt it. I am not saying it's wright or wrong.


All I am pointing ot is a technicallity: If there are gay scouters...and you do not know eho they are....then what gay behavior are they modeling?


My reason being if they were modeling gay behavior...then you would know who ther are and it wouldn't be a surprise.


Get what I am saying?


I am not saying wether I feel their plight, or wether i don't unerstyand it. I am not condoning, advocating or fighting their cause.


I am just sataing the obvious: If there are gay scouters ( and I have no doubt there are) ..then why don't we know who they are?


SIMPLE! Because they are not modeling any gay behavior. They are not acting gay in front of or around us. They are not pecking each other on the cheek or giving long kss goodbyes in front of the scouts.


Maybe they do that at home before going to the CO or meetin g place. Maybe they just don't do that/ Maybe they arm wrestle instead? I have no clue.


But my point is - they are not modeling in in froint of anybody in a scouting environment or we would know they were gay.


And truth be told, most of the ones who hide it probably hide it for a bigger reason than being kicked out of scouting.


Probably more to avoid hate crime sor other visciuos attacks.


Now mind you, I am not saying what could be or might one day be..I am taking about the here and now. If there is a gay person in your unit right now, I'll bet it's because you are not aware he/she is gay and that is because they do not display or model ( your choice) any behavior that would cause you to think they are gay.


If they did, we both kbow they would be dropped out.


So back to my original statement:


"If they look like everybody else, then they must be acting like everybody else in public. So they are no more modeling anything gay than you or I."


Meaning you can't tell who they are becaus4e they are acting just like us. And if they are acting just like us..then they are modeling what we model - not gay behavior.



"You look for ways for gays to hide their lifestyle and still be gay. They don't need your cute clever ideas of how to hide because they have been hiding their homosexuality for thousands of years. "


You are right on one part: they have been hiding it a long time. And that's what I am saying. You can't tell whio they are and they are not modeling gay behavior if they are hiding it.


You are wrong on the other part as I am not loking for ways for them to hide it. It's obvious that they don't need my help. They have been doing it for thousands of years afterall! Right?


And I do not try to justify, nor do I feel a need to try to help them. I don'yt attack them either.


There is nothing I can say or do that would cause them to change their lifestyle, and I do not feel it is my place to try even if I could.


I am just sating a simple fact: If they are hidiing their lifestyle..then how are they modeling it?


And I wasn't calling you to task with that queston.....I was just making a casual observation.

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Regarding Dale - it was a decision by the Council, not the CO. The CO and the Troop supported Dale and wanted to keep him on as an ASM. Their support was about him growing up in the Troop, they all knowing him, and liking him, and respecting him, and knowing his capabilities and knowing he would never be a threat.



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Please Scoutfish (I even call my sons Scooter), no dump cake.


Your last post as well as NJs make no sense to me. In fact they imply you agree more than you realize with me that gays are not good role models for scouts. The local option makes no sense if you still believe gays should not express publicly a homosexual lifestyle they believe is normal. Something as simple and innocent as introducing their life partner is an expression of the lifestyle choice. It is also a public expression of their behavior in front of scouts.


If you think this serious discussion is anything less, you are pandering to political correctness so you can feel good about yourself and ignoring the real moral issue of modeling a homosexual lifestyle in font of the scouts as a normal lifestyle.



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I agree with Barry about modeling behavior. I hope that I am being a good role model for my Scouts as both a father and husband. When does that take place? At COHs when my wife attends, when Scouts come to my house to work on merit badges, and even last night at our high school football game, where I usually see 8 - 10 of our Scouts. And no, I don't want the homosexual lifestyle modeled as normal and acceptable to my son, since I view this as sinful.

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Nah, I thought scooter was funny. I heard it in a Ron White voice. :)


Thing is, I am not endorsing or advocating gay behavior, nor am I bashing or denouncing it.


Truthfully, I do not care either way as it has never affected me personally. My sexual feelings are what they are because that is what they are. Knowing gay peole, bisexual people and a few asexual people has not changed how I feel about sex or sexuality.


No more than a freind being a vegatarian or exclusively drinking V-8 juice will cause me to stop shoving wonderfull tasty meat and green tea down my face!


I was only pointing out that is somebody was hiding a behavior ( wether gay or whatever) then in the fact they are hiding it, they are not modeling it. It can't be hidden and modeled at the same time. And I say hidden as since these people are acting as leaders or whatever..and everyone involved around them is not seeing anything to cause alarm...then they are not modeling any behavior other than what we are......which right now is scouting stuff like LNT, how to cook, make camp, buld campfires, hike, etc....



And I am also one of those guys who so far has not kissed my wife in front of the boys. We usually do that stuff at home.


And at our den and pack meetings, as well as camping, we don't talk about any kind of sex wether hetero or homo.


It makes me think of something my mom said to me a few days ago as I was helping her clean up fallen tree branches:

"Watch out and don't step into any hidden holes!" ( This is where she has been piling up branches, leaves, sticks, yard waste , etc for years)


My responce: "WEll, if they are hidden, there ain't much I can do about it as I can't see them!"


And no matter how much I don't want to step in them, and no matter how much I might hate stepping in them..if they are hidden ...then I can't watch for them.


So if the leaders are hiding their "gayness" then they are not modeling it. If they are not hiding it, you'd have already moved them from your unit.


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Thank you for a great question.

I have seen stuff that I thought was "Official" posted on sites that I again thought were "Official".

But the truth is I can't point you to where the BSA states their case in black and white.

While I of course respect the people who for religious reasons view homosexual activity as being a sin.

I at times get very mixed up and confused.

There are a lot of people out there who are not gay that I really don't think should be the ones that our kids should be looking up too and modeling.

More and more I'm hearing that if someone is gay? That's OK.


Yesterday I was running out the door from work and while waiting for the gates to open I picked up part of a newspaper that someone had left. While I don't remember names. In a nut shell the article was about a young Lad in California who killed another young Lad. It was very sad.

The Lad that was killed was openly gay,(Wearing make-up and high heels to school.) had been subjected to a lot of bullying and teasing. Somehow, someway he turned this bullying and teasing around and as a kinda of defense he started making advances to the people who were teasing him.

It seems he made advances to the Lad who killed him and because of these advances the lad lashed out.

I like to think that I'm fairly open minded.

But I can never see the day when a parent would be willing to allow their son to be left with a guy wearing make up and high heels! -It just ain't going to happen!

On the other hand the District Commissioner I looked up to and thought the world of in the UK. Was gay and I didn't know until I found out after he died.

I suppose looking back that there were signs. But no one was looking for them. About that time there were a lot of very dedicated unmarried men who were deeply involved in Scouting.

I had a assistant leader who had been the Scout Leader of another Troop till it folded who never married and as far as I know wasn't gay.

The District Commissioner was highly respected by everyone in the Scouting community.

I don't think whatever his sexual preferences or bedroom activities made any difference to him being a good Scouter.

Like Barry I at times feel sorry for the guys who are gay and in a committed relationship. I had a boss who I didn't know was gay and in a committed relationship. At that time it wasn't OK. He didn't feel comfortable having photos of his partner on his desk, he didn't feel it was OK to bring his partner to company outings and functions. While he did tell me he was gay and never asked me not to mention it, I didn't because at that time it just wasn't OK.

I never ever try to hide the fact that I'm married and that I love my wife.

Of course I don't go into details about what our sex life is or what we might or might not get up to in the bedroom. The fact is that anyone with half a brain could tell that I'm married and for most if not everyone this is viewed as being OK.

I'm sure that no one looks at me or my wife and tries to think about what we might even get up to in the bedroom!

Why should we look down on or even try to imagine what anyone else might get up to?

The thing that gets to me and plays with my head a little is the discrimination thing.

There just isn't any room in the Scout oath and law for discrimination, so for any discrimination to be allowed is just wrong.

We are doing what we can to help bring young people around to the idea of making ethical choices.

I just fail to see the ethics in discriminating against any group on the basis of race, gender, religion or sexual preference.

The take home message here? Just plays with my head.


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On a funny note here:


Jeff Foxworthy brought up an interesting point. Granted, it was in jest and for humor's sake..but an interesting point at the sae time:


"If you cannot remember the last time you had sex with a woman, you are either married or gay."


If your bed has a sham, a dustruffle and decorative pillows on it, you are either married or gay. "


And lastly:


"If instead of watching the football game and drinking beer , you are at an antique shop on the weekend, you are either married or gay."




I used to work with a gay plumber ( no, not a joke set up - even though it ought to be). Had he not told me he was gay after working with him for a few months..I would have never known. He didn't talk gayly, didn't dress or act gay. He talked about trucks, four wheeling, landscaping, hating to have to reshingle his house, how he did while target shooting his rifle over the weekend, etc..


Wore blue leans or Dickies or Carnharrts all the time and wore Timberland hiking boots everywhere, Denim shirts or canvas shirts. Dressed like Elmer Fudd except for the hat.


But we never talked about anything that would make me think he was gay.


So, this guy could have been a scoutleader and nobody would have ever know anything diferent by his actions or what behavior he was modeling . You'd have never known unless he told you.


Likewise, I have known and still know scout parents who are as straight as an arrow, who are 100% hetero as far as I know..and they walk around with the steriotypical limp wrist, use a cream or lotion for any and everything under the son, spend more time of their sock/shoe match than I do getting dressed and driving to work, and sing broadway showtunes and schedule their life around the tv show Glee.


They bring a mimi cappacino/expresso machine camping with them and there is a satchel of pot pouree hanging by the entrance to their tent.


They won't go into the woods without changing clothes at least 3 times and carry a small box of cottonballs in case some dirt or a bug touches them.


They also have smokin hot wives too for some reason.


Figure out which has the behavior you don't want modeled for your scouts.



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Of course, I want to also add, while growing up, we had a guy in our neighborhood who was a real "flamer". He didn't openly just tell anybody, but never hid it either.


He'd wear white spandex pants with pink trimed white cowboy boots and tan leather jacket with the fringy tassle things all over it. And carry a purse.


But he would readily admit that he did not cut grass because he was not made for "hard labor".


And you wouldn't find him camping in the woods or at a scout function anyways because that stuff was too in extreme and harsh conditions. THis guy wouldn't go to the beach becaue the sand might scratch his skin.


Not that we really hung out with him since he didn't appreciate normal boy things like shooting each other with bb guns or building forts, playing in the ditches, or stuff like that.


Point being, the guys who model that behavior or act like that probably are not the type to go treking in the woods on a scouting trip anyways.

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